Takeoff trim

[TheTurtle]

This thing gets off the ground in a hurry and wants to climb, then when the gear goes up it really wants to climb.  Kind of a lot to handle with a johnson bar in one hand.  Whats your process on takeoff?

takeoff roll
75mph slight pull to break off
positive rate
no more usable runway gear up
trim like hell
Flaps up
2500ish RPM
trim for 120

Im thinking I need to take another minute to trim down before raising the gear or do some tests with less than takeoff trim.

Edited August 17, 2016 by TheTurtle

[Bob_Belville]

I would be suspicious of the trim indicator. Does the indicator travel full range when you trim stop to stop on the ground?

You should not have to trim that aggressive. Try starting with less nose up trim. 

Plus:

I'd leave the throttle and prop alone @ 2700 RPM 'til at lease pattern altitude.

Raise gear first - it get tougher the faster your airspeed, then flaps, then boost pump off. Trim speed to about Vy initially ~ 100-110 mph.  Once you get the hang of it you won't be that busy. 

[carusoam]

I was all set to type....

Bob covered it perfectly!

just saved me ten minutes.

Best regards,

-a-

[TheTurtle]

8 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

I would be suspicious of the trim indicator. Does the indicator travel full range when you trim stop to stop on the ground?

You should not have to trim that aggressive. Try starting with less nose up trim. 

Plus:

I'd leave the throttle and prop alone @ 2700 RPM 'til at lease pattern altitude.

Raise gear first - it get tougher the faster your airspeed, then flaps, then boost pump off. Trim speed to about Vy initially ~ 100-110 mph.  Once you get the hang of it you won't be that busy. 

Ill check the trim travel when i go out next time.  Im not honestly sure.  Thanks for the other tips.

[Hank]

I have electric gear, but my procedure is this (normal takeoff, 1-2 people, half to full fuel, little baggage):

• trim one indicator width Up from Takeoff
• Flaps Up, Full prop, Full Rich, Full Throttle
• 70 mph, pull to break away and relax slightly (per Owners Manual)
• positive rate, gear up
• accelerate to ~85 mph (Vx) until clear of the trees (really close where I was based for seven years)
• lower the nose to 100 mph, adjust trim
• climb to altitude WOT/2700 at Vy (100 - Altitude in 1000s), Oil Temp permitting in hot weather
• level off, adjust trim, accelerate, set power, lean, adjust trim, fine tune altitude

You'll get the hang of it. If practical, join MAPA and attend a PPP clinic. I learned a LOT at my first one!

P.S.--when heavy, set Takeoff Flaps; rotate at 75 mph; raise Flaps when lowering nose to 100 mph.

Edited August 17, 2016 by Hank

[TheTurtle]

Just now, Hank said:

I have electric gear, but my procedure is this (normal takeoff, 1-2 people, half to full fuel, little baggage):

• trim one indicator width Up from Takeoff
• Flaps Up, Full prop, Full Rich, Full Throttle
• 70 mph, pull to break away and relax slightly (per Owners Manual)
• positive rate, gear up
• accelerate to ~85 mph (Vx) until clear of the trees (really close where I was based for seven years)
• lower the nose to 100 mph, adjust trim
• climb to altitude WOT/2700 at Vy (100 - Altitude in 1000s), Oil Temp permitting in hot weather
• level off, adjust trim, accelerate, set power, lean, adjust trim, fine tune altitude

You'll get the hang of it. If practical, join MAPA and attend a PPP clinic. I learned a LOT at my first one!

P.S.--when heavy, set Takeoff Flaps; rotate at 75 mph; raise Flaps when lowering nose to 100 mph.

Ill give no flaps a try.  I have plenty of room at KSNA and Chino.
The POH seemed to want you to back out of the throttle sooner than TOC I thought.  Ill reread that section.

[Hank]

I made routine No Flap takeoffs on my 3000' field, toward trees close enough that the opposite threshold is displaced to clear them. Seems like there are three chevrons before the line, and tall pine and deciduous trees.

note to self:  no flap takeoffs and half flap landings are controversial here, beyond even LOP/ROP discussion.

[carusoam]

Vr (rotation) for the Long Body is 65Kias, with T/O flaps set.

So 75mph might be a bit quick for a short body.  If it starts getting up on its nose wheel you'll know why.

Many people have come to the conclusion that full power from beginning to end works for them.  Even though the POH always calls for something less like 25/25.  It helps to have an engine monitor for this.

I have a tendency to reduce power in the descent.  VNE Redline is pretty easy to exceed.  Also keep an eye on maneuvering speed in bumpy air.

The hard part is finding where this is all written down, and knowing who the authors are...  It would have been easier to start reading about five years ago....

Best regards,

-a-

[Bob_Belville]

14 minutes ago, TheTurtle said:

Ill give no flaps a try.  I have plenty of room at KSNA and Chino.
The POH seemed to want you to back out of the throttle sooner than TOC I thought.  Ill reread that section.

Prevailing wisdom when I started flying Mooneys (1969) was reduce power to "25 square" (2500 & 25") shortly after take off... but that Lycoming is perfectly happy at full power all the way to cruise altitude as long as temps are okay.

Once you get take offs under control there are plenty of cockeyed geniuses here to pontificate on engine management.   

[TheTurtle]

1 minute ago, carusoam said:

Vr (rotation) for the Long Body is 65Kias, with T/O flaps set.

So 75mph might be a bit quick for a short body.  If it starts getting up on its nose wheel you'll know why.

Many people have come to the conclusion that full power from beginning to end works for them.  Even though the POH always calls for something less like 25/25.  It helps to have an engine monitor for this.

I have a tendency to reduce power in the descent.  VNE Redline is pretty easy to exceed.  Also keep an eye on maneuvering speed in bumpy air.

The hard part is finding where this is all written down, and knowing who the authors are...  It would have been easier to start reading about five years ago....

Best regards,

-a-

The POH for my 67F says 65-75 **MIAS  is Vr.  I guess Im on the high side of that at 75 so Ill try at a lower speed.

as to the climb power it says 2550-2600 right after gear up even before flaps up.
  Thats why the experiance of all you mooney owners comes into play.!!

I do have an older digital GEM thingy that has pretty bar graphs on it.  I guess ill read the manual   Ive just been making sure the temps are ok.

Edited August 17, 2016 by TheTurtle

[Brian Scranton]

If I set my trim above the "take off" trim setting by about 2/3 of the white trim bar. This makes for a much smoother takeoff. Vr for me is 65MIAS, V1 is 70MIAS and V2 is 75 (just kidding--Vr is all ya need). 500 feet, gear up, RPMs to 2500, boost pump and landing light off, turn on heading...watch the temps and keep power as high as you can! 

[Hank]

I raise gear once I'm sure I'm climbing, she climbs better clean. The book says to pull back at 65-75 mph, so I compromise on 70 mph. Works well.

Since I replaced the burned out GE landing light with Whelen LED, I leave it on all the time. 

Just keep an eye on Oil Temp.

[TheTurtle]

the book says climb out at 120 mph for best cooling and view so thats what Ive been doing and the temps seem to be fine.  it was about 100deg yesterday and she still climbs out like scalded dog.

[Andy95W]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

 

note to self:  no flap takeoffs and half flap landings are controversial here, beyond even LOP/ROP discussion.

Blasphemer!  The POH says to use flaps on takeoff!

 

[DXB]

3 hours ago, TheTurtle said:

This thing gets off the ground in a hurry and wants to climb, then when the gear goes up it really wants to climb.  Kind of a lot to handle with a johnson bar in one hand.  Whats your process on takeoff?

takeoff roll
75mph slight pull to break off
positive rate
no more usable runway gear up
trim like hell
Flaps up
2500ish RPM
trim for 120

Im thinking I need to take another minute to trim down before raising the gear or do some tests with less than takeoff trim.

My normal takeoff process (in my C) is rotation at 70 mph (75 in gusts), gear up immediately with positive rate, usually around 80mph, flaps up when clear of obstacles.

If you wait until no more usable runway, swinging the J bar just won't work unless you keep speed at Vx, except in the shortest field...

[Hank]

6 hours ago, N1395W said:

Blasphemer!  The POH says to use flaps on takeoff!

 

My Owners Manual says, "Flaps--Takeoff or as desired".

No converts in this discussion either. 

[Guest]

Turtle,

I would suggest that the rigging of the stabilizer and the trim indicator should be checked first.  For this your need to find someone with the correct travel board and a manual.

Clarence

[Glenn]

You might want to try:

• Light back pressure on the yoke as you begin the take-off roll and just let it fly off. (This works well with T/O Flaps)
• Tap the brakes and retract the gear once you have a positive ROC
• Select Flaps-up & immediately take 10 swipes forward on the trim wheel.
• Fuel pump off.
• The POH for my '67F suggest 26" & 2600 for climb, and that works OK but there is no rush.

[M20F-1968]

I have a 68 F, but it has a J model flap and trim indicator (which is DER approved) and is cable driven.  I have the trim indicator set so I reference a specific line on the indicator as to where I want the trim for take-off.  The broad box labeled "Take Off" from the factory is way to wide a range.  The setting I use is not too much different from the general ranges where I fly the plane.  I am not vigorously trimming on take off nor on landing, but using the trim to relieve control pressures.  The trim is not a control surface!

You will want to take the trim indicator mechanism apart and verify that everything moves freely and that the cable is not binding at all.  When you put everything back together, use a rigging board to confirm adequate trim adjustment.

 

You will want to rotate at 65 kts.

Use 1 pump of flaps for take-off

Put up gear first, once positive rate of climb and end of runway obtained.

raise flaps only after the gear is up and you have positive rate of climb.

Keep full throttle to altitude

Climb at Vx or Vy until at least pattern altitude, then transition to cruise climb about 105 kts.

To transition to cruise, close cowl flaps, push the nose over, allow speed to build and then make your throttle and prop adjustments.

John Breda

[Guitarmaster]

I set my trim full nose down, yank it off the ground at 95 MIAS, suck gear up, roll upside down, set power 42" and 3500 and climb out 215MIAS.  This procedure works well, but you have to make sure the tanks are full or they may unport.  

Some may say my approach to operating my airplane is "radical", but since I installed the LED lights, my performance has gone through the roof!  Point of reference, with the LED lights, I gained 39 knots in cruise!

  

[TheTurtle]

1 hour ago, Guitarmaster said:

I set my trim full nose down, yank it off the ground at 95 MIAS, suck gear up, roll upside down, set power 42" and 3500 and climb out 215MIAS.  This procedure works well, but you have to make sure the tanks are full or they may unport.  

Some may say my approach to operating my airplane is "radical", but since I installed the LED lights, my performance has gone through the roof!  Point of reference, with the LED lights, I gained 35 knots in cruise!

  

well i do have LED landing lights...

[Lance Keve]

13 hours ago, Bob_Belville said:

I would be suspicious of the trim indicator. Does the indicator travel full range when you trim stop to stop on the ground?

You should not have to trim that aggressive. Try starting with less nose up trim. 

 

I second Bob's above.  I was having a similar, but opposite, experience where it seemed to take more and more of a handful to get it off the ground.  Did a ground test, rolling the trim wheel to both extremes and seeing where it landed on the indicator.  Yes, it was quite a bit off.  Perhaps it has slipped as it seemed to not always be that way.  For the moment, takeoff trim setting is about an inch above the line.  Annual this month, so will get it sorted.

Regards,

Lance

[Guitarmaster]

1 hour ago, Guitarmaster said: I set my trim full nose down, yank it off the ground at 95 MIAS, suck gear up, roll upside down, set power 42" and 3500 and climb out 215MIAS.  This procedure works well, but you have to make sure the tanks are full or they may unport.  

Some may say my approach to operating my airplane is "radical", but since I installed the LED lights, my performance has gone through the roof!  Point of reference, with the LED lights, I gained 35 knots in cruise!

  

well i do have LED landing lights...

This procedure only works if you have LED nav lights. The landing light is different.

[Bob_Belville]

13 hours ago, Bob_Belville said: I would be suspicious of the trim indicator. Does the indicator travel full range when you trim stop to stop on the ground?

You should not have to trim that aggressive. Try starting with less nose up trim. 

 

I second Bob's above.  I was having a similar, but opposite, experience where it seemed to take more and more of a handful to get it off the ground.  Did a ground test, rolling the trim wheel to both extremes and seeing where it landed on the indicator.  Yes, it was quite a bit off.  Perhaps it has slipped as it seemed to not always be that way.  For the moment, takeoff trim setting is about an inch above the line.  Annual this month, so will get it sorted.

Regards,

Lance

When you get into the indicator mechanism you'll find that it's pretty Mickey Mouse and easily gets out of whack. (Sorry for the technical terms.)

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

[Mooneymite]

On the early Mooneys the trim indicator is just a piece of plastic that can slide along the piano wire.  It easily gets out of position.

Here's a clue:

Look at where the trim indicator is after you land.  On a properly rigged Mooney, the "perfect landing trim" setting will be close to what you need for takeoff.  Landing may be about "a white indicator" width more back trim than takeoff, but it will be in the ballpark.  If your takeoff and landing trim settings are significantly different, take Clarence's advice and find a shop with rigging boards.