New CEO at Mooney

[shorrick mk2]

A BRS will in effect make the current Ovations and Acclaims two-seaters by further eating into the payload. 

A BRS without proper landing gear and increased MTOW is throwing good money after bad. Donuts are cool and low cost - but surely in this day and age with the multitude of tiny powerful electric motors available one motor and proper strut per landing leg will be cheaper to buy and easier to build than the current solution.

The question is how much will that cost versus how many airframes will be sold. And neither addition will solve the labor-intensive solution of building the plane around a hand welded steel tube cage.

Keep in mind good second-hand DA42s are on the market at the Acclaim / Ovation Ultra price point and they have the best parachute - a second (reliable) engine.

[Bravoman]

I think what everyone says underscores the fact that the m20, as much as we love it, has seen its day from the standpoint of being economically viable for a manufacturer to produce. Times change, and so does what buyers want. Personally, I think that the cost and overall feasibility of incorporating a chute really makes it a fantasy. I really don't care for the cirrus and diamond type of planes, but that is probably because they didn't exist when I got into aviation. However most folks I talk to today love them. The cirrus in particular is very roomy and to me it almost feels like you are sitting in a luxury auto. IMO that is where the future lies for piston singles, especially those which will be  produced in numbers significant enough to keep a manufacturer profitable.

[Jeff_S]

There's no doubt the parachute can sell airplanes, I guess. And there are a few well-publicized examples of it saving some lives. But if you look a the Cirrus accident record starting from Jan 1 2015 to today, there are 11 fatal accidents with 19 lives lost. A quick scan through those shows that most of these are prime examples of poor maneuvering at low altitude with subsequent stall/spin entries, and no parachute is going to overcome that.

I'm not quite with the rest of the crowd that says Mooney needs a parachute to be successful, or that the M20 is a goner. Bonanza's and TTXs are still being produced (albeit with bigger corporations behind them, admittedly). I assume that Mooney has run the analysis and knows how many airframes it needs to sell per year to have respectable profitability, and that it can move these in China as well as the U.S. I don't know what those numbers are, but for all the reasons we've always espoused, I think the M20 is still a viable product. Perhaps I have my head in the sand, but I remain hopeful...

[Marauder]

Selling 11 airplanes in a year isn't going to cut it;

https://www.gama.aero/files/2015ShipmentReport-03212016Ed.pdf

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[Marauder]

CY2016 is even worse for Mooney.

http://www.gama.aero/files/documents/2016ShipmentReport-Q2.pdf

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[Bravoman]

7 minutes ago, Jeff_S said:

There's no doubt the parachute can sell airplanes, I guess. And there are a few well-publicized examples of it saving some lives. But if you look a the Cirrus accident record starting from Jan 1 2015 to today, there are 11 fatal accidents with 19 lives lost. A quick scan through those shows that most of these are prime examples of poor maneuvering at low altitude with subsequent stall/spin entries, and no parachute is going to overcome that.

I'm not quite with the rest of the crowd that says Mooney needs a parachute to be successful, or that the M20 is a goner. Bonanza's and TTXs are still being produced (albeit with bigger corporations behind them, admittedly). I assume that Mooney has run the analysis and knows how many airframes it needs to sell per year to have respectable profitability, and that it can move these in China as well as the U.S. I don't know what those numbers are, but for all the reasons we've always espoused, I think the M20 is still a viable product. Perhaps I have my head in the sand, but I remain hopeful...

Jeff, I think you hit the nail on the head when you mentioned the size of the corporation. Although I admit I don't know the numbers, I really believe Textron has decided to continue producing Bo's and barons as sort of a loss leader, or perhaps it is a vestige of the old step up mentality of manufacturers to keep buyers in the brand from their first plane to their last. That aside, I don't think these planes are being produced and sold in numbers significant enough to keep the company profitable if that's all they were making.

Frank

[Bravoman]

5 minutes ago, Marauder said:

CY2016 is even worse for Mooney.

http://www.gama.aero/files/documents/2016ShipmentReport-Q2.pdf

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Well, I guess we do have the numbers!!

[Danb]

With the new CEO on board I have to assume they have a game plan. Most likely it would push the 10 series in Asia, and hopefully market the new Ultra series as a luxury product. Looking at the changes in the Ultra series point toward the luxury market, hopefully they will figure out a way to increase the useful load but 300 lbs or so, if they can they will have a nice complement of airplanes to market. The Asian market is the key to our success. 

We would have an economical trainer, a nice economical complex plane, a great luxury in the Ovation and a screamer in the Acclaim. What a great series of planes, now marketing is the key to success. China has money and we need to push the Mooney market overseas, even if it makes us upset.

 

[Ftlausa]

The Ultra seems to be a major improvement in the aesthetic design of the M20, but as much as I hate to say it, I think the comments about the BRS are probably correct.  I have flown the Cirrus quite a bit and I am not that wild about the flying characteristics of the plane or the side yoke, but my passengers really like the idea of the parachute and I do like the 4 point harness for hard IMC.  Cirrus has also done a very good job of emulating the luxury car space and feel.   I personally like the flying characteristics and side stick of the Lancair/Columbia/Cessna 350/400 aircraft over the Cirrus, but the sales numbers show that Cirrus is the clear winner.  As a business owner myself, sometimes you have to say to yourself -- If you can beat em, join em.     

[LANCECASPER]

54 minutes ago, Marauder said:

CY2016 is even worse for Mooney.

http://www.gama.aero/files/documents/2016ShipmentReport-Q2.pdf

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Once Mooney announced the Ultra anyone who was thinking of an Acclaim or Ovation waited for that, Too bad they didn't wait until it was certified to announce it.

[N601RX]

1 hour ago, Marauder said:

CY2016 is even worse for Mooney.

http://www.gama.aero/files/documents/2016ShipmentReport-Q2.pdf

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I met someone a couple of months ago who purchased a new Mooney last year at sun in fun. He was finally able to take delivery of it the last day of December. They missed several promise dates over a several month period. If they had more orders it's unlikely they would be able to fill them.      He told me there was a 20k price increase in jan of this year and an additional $40k price increase for the new ultra. 

[mike_elliott]

4 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

Once Mooney announced the Ultra anyone who was thinking of an Acclaim or Ovation waited for that, Too bad they didn't wait until it was certified to announce it.

That would have been difficult to do. Remember the thread here on Mooneyspace where one of us couldn't keep it to himself and wanted to be "the guy" who let the cat out of the bag in spite of Mooney's intended planned announcements? This also happened with the M10 at the Mooney Summit I, when Jared asked us to keep it under our hats to allow Mooney to announce it the following week in China. Unfortunately, somebody couldn't do it.

No one wants the certification to be finished more than Mooney  I hear they have one more single door to sell, then they have to wait, and keep all the other projects on "hold" until certification resources can be freed up.

[Bob_Belville]

5 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

That would have been difficult to do. Remember the thread here on Mooneyspace where one of us couldn't keep it to himself and wanted to be "the guy" who let the cat out of the bag in spite of Mooney's intended planned announcements? This also happened with the M10 at the Mooney Summit I, when Jared asked us to keep it under our hats to allow Mooney to announce it the following week in China. Unfortunately, somebody couldn't do it.

No one wants the certification to be finished more than Mooney  I hear they have one more single door to sell, then they have to wait, and keep all the other projects on "hold" until certification resources can be freed up.

Unless the sale fell through later I think Richard sold the last single door Acclaim at KOSH. It had a very nice price discount vs. the Ultra.

[mike_elliott]

Just now, Bob_Belville said:

Unless the sale fell through later I think Richard sold the last single door Acclaim at KOSH. It had a very nice price discount vs. the Ultra.

that was the second last one. I *almost* did the transition training, but timings didn't work. There is one more. Richard will make you a heck of a deal on it! Someone we both know is in discussion about buying it now.

[Bob_Belville]

Can't resist offering my $02.

1. There will never be a monopoly, even in a relatively small market like $750,000 personal single engines. Cirrus' success does not mean there's no room for Mooney. I suppose it is more dangerous to move toward "me too" vs. what I think Mooney is doing in their marketing of a pilot's plane with safety, performance, style. Accentuate the differences - there are plenty of differences in which Mooney is clearly superior.  

2. Mooney has come about a million miles in less than 3 years. I'm proud of what's been done and not at all disappointed that they have not waved a magic wand and returned to 1966 production levels.  

[Bob_Belville]

1 minute ago, mike_elliott said:

that was the second last one. I *almost* did the transition training, but timings didn't work. There is one more. Richard will make you a heck of a deal on it! Someone we both know is in discussion about buying it now.

Doesn't he already have 3?  Love it!

[201er]

1 hour ago, Marauder said:

Selling 11 airplanes in a year isn't going to cut it;

https://www.gama.aero/files/2015ShipmentReport-03212016Ed.pdf

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Well by that count, Boeing has only made 11 as well!

[Bob_Belville]

Just now, 201er said:

Well by that count, Boeing has only made 11 as well!

What is the year over year percentage increase in sales and production vs. 2012?  

The comatose factory has been resurrected and modernized, the M20 has been given a fresh interior and panel, and the M10 conceived and flown. Marketing is spending to go to shows in a first class manner, taking full page ads, encouraging owner groups, e.g. Ambassadors, Caravan, Summit, MAPA.  

Pretty tough peanut gallery of second guessers here. Pick up a weapon and stand a post on the wall. 

[Marauder]

1 hour ago, Marauder said: Selling 11 airplanes in a year isn't going to cut it;

https://www.gama.aero/files/2015ShipmentReport-03212016Ed.pdf

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Well by that count, Boeing has only made 11 as well!

Yep, expect Boeing sold them for $367M while Mooney sold them for $8M.

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[Marauder]

Just now, 201er said: Well by that count, Boeing has only made 11 as well!

What is the year over year percentage increase in sales and production vs. 2012?  

The comatose factory has been resurrected and modernized, the M20 has been given a fresh interior and panel, and the M10 conceived and flown. Marketing is spending to go to shows in a first class manner, taking full page ads, encouraging owner groups, e.g. Ambassadors, Caravan, Summit, MAPA.  

Pretty tough peanut gallery of second guessers here. Pick up a weapon and stand a post on the wall. 

Bob -- I think we both know what needs to be done. They need to take market share. In this market you can do it by value add or price. An extra door is really hard to justify as a value add. Especially since us old f@rts still need to crawl out on the wing.

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[201er]

15 minutes ago, Marauder said:

Bob -- I think we both know what needs to be done. They need to take market share. In this market you can do it by value add or price. An extra door is really hard to justify as a value add. Especially since us old f@rts still need to crawl out on the wing.

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The second door can't possibly be to sell to existing Mooney pilots. We all know that it's harder to get out from the seat by the door than crawling across it!

[Marauder]

15 minutes ago, Marauder said: Bob -- I think we both know what needs to be done. They need to take market share. In this market you can do it by value add or price. An extra door is really hard to justify as a value add. Especially since us old f@rts still need to crawl out on the wing.

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The second door can't possibly be to sell to existing Mooney pilots. We all know that it's harder to get out from the seat by the door than crawling across it!

And I thought it was for guys like me who found it easier to pull an overweight passenger out rather than pushing them out.

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[Oscar Avalle]

I agree that Mooney does need to do a better job in getting market share. It seems to me that they are not aggressive enough in reaching out to new customers.

Just as an example at Oshkosh I went to look at the Cirrus display. A sales(?) person approached me and started asking me questions about what I was flying, what kind of flying I was doing. He suggested different ownership options (partnerships, etc)... He mentioned the BRS system and used it as a way of getting fearful fliers into the plane... (does your wife like to fly... or is she scared...)

Mooney: I had to look for somebody, I told him that I owned a Mooney... he said ahhhh... ok, told me I should have a look at the new planes and left. 

Was I in the market for a new plane... no. I don't have the money... May be I just look like a CB who hardly can afford flying what I have now... But still...

May be I am unfair and it was 9 AM in the morning and I just did not reach out to the right person, may be. But still....

[mike_elliott]

Dr. Vivek Saxena will be attending the Mooney Summit IV in Panama City Beach, along with the rest of the Mooney team. We are honored to have him attend and share his vision.

 

[Guitarmaster]

I agree that Mooney does need to do a better job in getting market share. It seems to me that they are not aggressive enough in reaching out to new customers.

Just as an example at Oshkosh I went to look at the Cirrus display. A sales(?) person approached me and started asking me questions about what I was flying, what kind of flying I was doing. He suggested different ownership options (partnerships, etc)... He mentioned the BRS system and used it as a way of getting fearful fliers into the plane... (does your wife like to fly... or is she scared...)

Mooney: I had to look for somebody, I told him that I owned a Mooney... he said ahhhh... ok, told me I should have a look at the new planes and left. 

Was I in the market for a new plane... no. I don't have the money... May be I just look like a CB who hardly can afford flying what I have now... But still...

May be I am unfair and it was 9 AM in the morning and I just did not reach out to the right person, may be. But still....

I would have to agree. Talking to the Mooney sales reps at Oshkosh was a little bit like walking into a BMW dealership in jeans and a t-shirt.

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