Who's Installing a G5?

[Marauder]

 

I know the Aspen shows a red X for attitude if the pitot is blocked. I've personally seen it. I don't think the G5 does that. 

From Garmin's manual:

The G5 calculates aircraft attitude using information from its built-in inertial sensors. Any failure of the inertial sensors results in loss of attitude and information (indicated by red 'X' flags over the PFD attitude display). If the G5 senses that the attitude solution is valid, but not yet within the internal accuracy limits, "ALIGNING" is displayed. The G5 can align itself both while taxiing and during level flight. The G5 will also use GPS and airspeed data to provide the most accurate attitude information. If none of these additional sources of information are available, attitude calculations will still be valid but accuracy may be slightly affected.

According to the POH it will do the red X as well.

I'm guessing that the amount of the "still valid" is not within acceptable limits to be used as a backup. Seems silly since it can replace a primary AI, doesn't it?

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[kortopates]

21 minutes ago, Marauder said:

 

Yeah Paul I was surprised to find out that the Aspen uses airspeed in conjunction with the AHRS and it certainty explains why the G5 isn't eligible.


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Air data has always been the Achilles heal of the Aspen and having triple redundant Aspens won't make up for it.  You really need an airdata independent attitude display for backup.

15 minutes ago, mccdeuce said:

Hmmm.  So its acceptable to have a system based on a single vacuum source that does not account for speed in its calculation of attitude but not have a gps assisted electric system based on airspeed?  Hopefully with these systems gaining STC we will see more and more competition which will lead to better products.

I don't think I follow, but its acceptable to have a single vacuum source for AI and DG air driven gyro's because you have non air driven backups with your electric Turn Coordinator, IAS and Compass as you learned in instrument ground school. So there is really no comparison. The STC providers for Aspen, G500, etc provide guidance on acceptable backups for their products based on configuration in part. They are taking these failure dependency's into account with how or what they specify for acceptable backups. But installers are often able to get a 337 to use different but theoretically compatible backup device  - so you'll see differences.

 

2 minutes ago, AaronDC8402 said:

 

I know the Aspen shows a red X for attitude if the pitot is blocked. I've personally seen it. I don't think the G5 does that. 

From Garmin's manual:

The G5 calculates aircraft attitude using information from its built-in inertial sensors. Any failure of the inertial sensors results in loss of attitude and information (indicated by red 'X' flags over the PFD attitude display). If the G5 senses that the attitude solution is valid, but not yet within the internal accuracy limits, "ALIGNING" is displayed. The G5 can align itself both while taxiing and during level flight. The G5 will also use GPS and airspeed data to provide the most accurate attitude information. If none of these additional sources of information are available, attitude calculations will still be valid but accuracy may be slightly affected.

What Aaron is quoting is very similar to how the G500 can degrade and how GPS may be used to supplement the AHRS solution. Its been awhile, but I think Sandia's Quattro does this as well.

In my Mooney I have the G500, backed up by the L3 LSI-500 (between the radios and G500, or viewable from both seats) and then on the co-pilot side I have an electric backup AI. All electric yes, but I have dual alternators and battery on the backup which does everything including navigation. I did have to keep my primary vacuum pump for my speed brakes.

[kortopates]

12 minutes ago, Marauder said:

I'm guessing that the amount of the "still valid" is not within acceptable limits to be used as a backup. Seems silly since it can replace a primary AI, doesn't it?

Since airspeed doesn't take it out, which is nice, I am not sure why it is not allowed. My recollection of the Aspen STC backup instrument verbiage is that its written as performance based requirements. So perhaps a matter of interpretation of the STC requirements ?

[Marauder]

Since airspeed doesn't take it out, which is nice, I am not sure why it is not allowed. My recollection of the Aspen STC backup instrument verbiage is that its written as performance based requirements. So perhaps a matter of interpretation of the STC requirements ?

I agree. Seems as if something that can act as a primary should be able to function as a backup.


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[DXB]

10 hours ago, Marauder said:

 

Dev - I spoke with Ben today to find out why the G5 is not eligible as a backup for the Aspen, yet can be certified as primary. The reason is that both the Aspen PFD and Garmin G5 use airspeed as part of the algorithm for calculating attitude. Because of this single point of failure, it cannot be used as a backup.

Ironically however, it can be used as sole primary.


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Huh.  Very interesting Chris.  I'd never realized this limitation of Aspen before - seems like a big one.  Clearly there are other low cost glass backup AIs that don't have this limitation - the Dynon for instance - or at least they are allowed to be a backup despite it. The Aspen is a pretty old design, but seems wierd the new G5 was engineered this way. 

[gsxrpilot]

I'll be installing a single Aspen panel next month with full intentions of removing the vacuum system. Between here, Beechtalk, and various other sources, there seems to be a lot of conflicting information. I've been looking at both the G5 as well as the Sandia system. They are both very similar, but the wording of the STC's are a bit different and that might make all the difference. Both pull Attitude partially from the Pitot but both are certifiable without the Pitot input. I know the L3 is really nice, but it's just so expensive and too much for just a back up AI. I'm still investigating and will hope to have it worked out by early Jan.

[kortopates]

I'll be installing a single Aspen panel next month with full intentions of removing the vacuum system. Between here, Beechtalk, and various other sources, there seems to be a lot of conflicting information. I've been looking at both the G5 as well as the Sandia system. They are both very similar, but the wording of the STC's are a bit different and that might make all the difference. Both pull Attitude partially from the Pitot but both are certifiable without the Pitot input. I know the L3 is really nice, but it's just so expensive and too much for just a back up AI. I'm still investigating and will hope to have it worked out by early Jan.

You don't have vacuum speed brakes? Sorry I don't know what year yours is - but lucky you if you have the electric. I am envious. I am only pulling my electric standby vacuum.


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[aviatoreb]

Just thinking out loud - not expressing an opinion - what do you think of this?

So I have he King KFC200 autopilot including the gyro attitude indicator that goes with.  I cannot get rid of that easily unless I go aspen or g600.  So the g5 won't do.

So g5 would be just as a backup.

But I already have a nice and recently overhauled electric gyro.  So no need to get rid of that.

Well electronic is nice, but why would I want a third attitude indicator unless it does something extra?

I wish the G5 came with synthetic vision - why didn't they?

Well the GRT mini does come with synthetic vision.  Same size and shape.  But it is officially a "temporary" install like a handheld.  It is cheaper therefore than the G5 and easy to install - just needs an open hole.

http://grtavionics.com/mini.html

[gsxrpilot]

On 12/7/2016 at 3:26 PM, kortopates said:

You don't have vacuum speed brakes? Sorry I don't know what year yours is - but lucky you if you have the electric. I am envious. I am only pulling my electric standby vacuum.

Yeah so it turns out I do have vacuum speed brakes. That means I'll be keeping the vacuum system. I'll be stuck with the weight, but will be able to keep the existing AI as the backup for the Aspen. So that will save some me some funds at this point in the game.

How hard would it be to switch out for electric speed brakes???

[Danb]

I should be getting the G-5 as a backup to my G-1000 next month.

[Andy95W]

Paul- I thought the autopilot in your 252 needed the AI for its input.  Or can the Aspen do that?

[gsxrpilot]

6 minutes ago, N1395W said:

Paul- I thought the autopilot in your 252 needed the AI for its input.  Or can the Aspen do that?

There is an adaptor from Aspen called an EA100 that will allow the Aspen to drive the autopilot. It's about $2.5 AMU's but then it's done and if I lose the vacuum pump, I've only lost speed brakes. I can't imagine doing the Aspen without doing it right.

[kortopates]

Yeah so it turns out I do have vacuum speed brakes. That means I'll be keeping the vacuum system. I'll be stuck with the weight, but will be able to keep the existing AI as the backup for the Aspen. So that will save some me some funds at this point in the game.
How hard would it be to switch out for electric speed brakes???

Not worth it in my book - not until the vacuum canister is beyond repair and Britain doesn't come through with the replacement they've been talking about. Otherwise we'd be looking at $6K for new brakes plus installation cost for few days of labor.
At least you can still pull your electric standby vacuum pump from the avionics bay and get some useful load back like I am doing; that's more significant than the weight of the engine vacuum point too.


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[Marauder]

An update on the Aspen backup AI situation. I have been doing some research and found out why a product like the L3 ESI-500 can be a legal back up to an Aspen and others possibly cannot.

The ESI-500 although it uses airspeed as an aiding source for computing attitude (and I believe all AHRS systems for GA use either GPS or airspeed aiding), the ESI-500 has a degraded mode of operation if airspeed aiding is lost. Essentially, when in degraded mode, the ESI-500 attitude reverts to the performance level of a standard mechanical attitude indicator (TSO-c4c), rather than the performance level of an AHRS (TSO-C201).

I believe the G5 does not hold this specific TSO to allow it to perform in a degraded mode or holds a TSO specific for primary. I haven't gotten a reply from Garmin to confirm this, but I suspect this is what is going on and why shops are not promoting it as a backup solution for the Aspens. If I hear more, I will forward it along.

[DAVIDWH]

Is it possible to flush mount the G5?

[M20kflyer99]

5 hours ago, DAVIDWH said:

Is it possible to flush mount the G5?

According to the Q&A on AircraftSpruce there is no flush mount 

 

http://m.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/garmin-g5-cert.php

[NotarPilot]

Well, today I finally joined the ranks of being a "G5 pilot" (No, not that G5).  Pretty slick little device and I think I'm really going to enjoy flying behind this thing.  Installation was about 7 hours of work but it wasn't a straight or simple swap and drop-in replacement either.  Right off the bat we could see that the lower part of the G5 unit was going to overlap the top of the Bendix/King HSI bezel.  Jeff, of High Desert Avionics, was able to figure out a way to move the holes up so he could ensure a proper fit.  After some drilling and filing away at the instrument hole a brand new G5 lay happily in it's new home.  

Total cost for parts and labor ended up being $684.  I'm glad he was able to accommodate me and have the unit done in one day while I waited.  If you're in the SoCal area and need good quality avionics work please consider Jeff at High Desert Avionics at Fox Field.  I've always been happy with his quality of work and continue to go back up there when I need avionics work done to my plane. He doesn't make you feel like your job is too small and not worth his time, like I had at another local shop.  Today I just learned how he helped out on the SpaceShip One program, working for Burt Rutan.

Edited December 20, 2016 by NotarPilot
Added photo

[bradp]

Is the G5 configurable in both knots and MPH?

Also - I'm assuming the ASI and VSI / Alt are advisory only, so no removing the VSI to make more panel room as part of the STC, I suppose.

Thanks!

B


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[Marauder]

Well, today I finally joined the ranks of being a "G5 pilot" (No, not that G5).  Pretty slick little device and I think I'm really going to enjoy flying behind this thing.  Installation was about 7 hours of work but it wasn't a straight or simple swap and drop-in replacement either.  Right off the bat we could see that the lower part of the G5 unit was going to overlap the top of the Bendix/King HSI bezel.  Jeff, of High Desert Avionics, was able to figure out a way to move the holes up so he could ensure a proper fit.  After some drilling and filing away at the instrument hole a brand new G5 lay happily in it's new home.  
Total cost for parts and labor ended up being $684.  I'm glad he was able to accommodate me and have the unit done in one day while I waited.  If you're in the SoCal area and need good quality avionics work please consider Jeff at High Desert Avionics at Fox Field.  I've always been happy with his quality of work and continue to go back up there when I need avionics work done to my plane. He doesn't make you feel like your job is too small and not worth his time, like I had at another local shop.  Today I just learned how he helped out on the SpaceShip One program, working for Burt Rutan.

Glad to hear you made the decision to move forward. After doing more research on the current options for my Aspen backup, I elected to go with the L-3 ESI-500.


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[M016576]

I think I've found my solution to replace my KI-256 backup attitude indicator.  Bendix King is about to release the KI-300 standby indicator.  You dont get airspeed, altitude or heading, but it is solid state, is a drop in replacement for the KI-256 and can drive a king autopilot with less than 1 hour install cost (if the press releases are to be believed).  For me, it's either this, or buy a G5 AND an Aspen EA100 adapter- hardware alone cost would be roughly the same (~$5 AMU), but install costs would be significantly more for the G5/Aspen autopilot adapter.  This is kind of a unique dilemma for my current setup, but anyone that's driving a King autopilot might run into this problem down the road.

[mike_elliott]

2 hours ago, M016576 said:

I think I've found my solution to replace my KI-256 backup attitude indicator.  Bendix King is about to release the KI-300 standby indicator.  You dont get airspeed, altitude or heading, but it is solid state, is a drop in replacement for the KI-256 and can drive a king autopilot with less than 1 hour install cost (if the press releases are to be believed).  For me, it's either this, or buy a G5 AND an Aspen EA100 adapter- hardware alone cost would be roughly the same (~$5 AMU), but install costs would be significantly more for the G5/Aspen autopilot adapter.  This is kind of a unique dilemma for my current setup, but anyone that's driving a King autopilot might run into this problem down the road.

here we go again.... Chris, do you have the popcorn for the herd?

[NotarPilot]

12 hours ago, bradp said:

Is the G5 configurable in both knots and MPH?

Also - I'm assuming the ASI and VSI / Alt are advisory only, so no removing the VSI to make more panel room as part of the STC, I suppose.

Thanks!

B


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I'm not sure but I don't think so. I don't see any reference to MPH in the installation manual or being able to select imperial units. But you would think they would offer that as a choice, right? I think I would have to go into the configuration mode to verify this. I'll try and remember to check this next time I fly my plane.

Chris, I really like the ESI-500 and I would have likely bit the bullet and gone with that had they not wanted something like $1,500-$1,800 more just for synthetic vision. But the G5 will suit me just fine. Avidyne's 10.2 software is supposed to have synthetic vision, if they ever release it. 

[Marauder]

1 hour ago, NotarPilot said:

I'm not sure but I don't think so. I don't see any reference to MPH in the installation manual or being able to select imperial units. But you would think they would offer that as a choice, right? I think I would have to go into the configuration mode to verify this. I'll try and remember to check this next time I fly my plane.

Chris, I really like the ESI-500 and I would have likely bit the bullet and gone with that had they not wanted something like $1,500-$1,800 more just for synthetic vision. But the G5 will suit me just fine. Avidyne's 10.2 software is supposed to have synthetic vision, if they ever release it. 

If the airspeed on the G5 is considered "primary" for airspeed and altitude, then it would be like the Aspen install and whatever units are in your POH are the units the G5 will need to display. Since the shop didn't remove the airspeed or altimeter, I suspect it is considered secondary and those need to stay and the G5 display units can be whatever you want them to be.

The L3 unit made the most sense for me since the Aspen STC (as does the Garmin G500) requires a unit that meets the requirement for a backup. Still have a hard time understanding how a unit that can function as a primary source of attitude cannot be a backup for another unit. I know it's all a matter of legal definition, but seems silly to me that the reason is they consider a pitot static failure the disqualifying factor for it to act as a backup when that same pitot static system is connected to (and is used) as an input for airspeed to fine tune the AHRS. The L3 meets the backup requirement probably because wrote the STC that way. I suspect there is software to support this as well.

[N6758N]

15 minutes ago, Marauder said:

If the airspeed on the G5 is considered "primary" for airspeed and altitude, then it would be like the Aspen install and whatever units are in your POH are the units the G5 will need to display. Since the shop didn't remove the airspeed or altimeter, I suspect it is considered secondary and those need to stay and the G5 display units can be whatever you want them to be.

The L3 unit made the most sense for me since the Aspen STC (as does the Garmin G500) requires a unit that meets the requirement for a backup. Still have a hard time understanding how a unit that can function as a primary source of attitude cannot be a backup for another unit. I know it's all a matter of legal definition, but seems silly to me that the reason is they consider a pitot static failure the disqualifying factor for it to act as a backup when that same pitot static system is connected to (and is used) as an input for airspeed to fine tune the AHRS. The L3 meets the backup requirement probably because wrote the STC that way. I suspect there is software to support this as well.

Chris, Why not just wait it out until Garmin and Aspen revise the STC's so that the G5 can support the Aspen as a backup, I really think its only a matter of time before they do. Saves a whole lot of money too. I also think you should have me install whatever it is you choose, I want to see one for myself haha! Edit- I just realized how much of a rats nest it is behind your panel thanks to Peter... maybe not. 

[Marauder]

2 minutes ago, N6758N said:

Chris, Why not just wait it out until Garmin and Aspen revise the STC's so that the G5 can support the Aspen as a backup, I really think its only a matter of time before they do. Saves a whole lot of money too. I also think you should have me install whatever it is you choose, I want to see one for myself haha! Edit- I just realized how much of a rats nest it is behind your panel thanks to Peter... maybe not. 

I'm done with the waiting game for this crap. I saw how long it took for the 345 to get approved for the Aspen. Even if it gets the supplemental STC, do you think they will keep the price the same? L3 has a solution, it's approved. Done.

As for your former shop's quality, yes indeed. I spend good money cleaning up a lot of the trash they left. Including a sagging avionics rack over the co-pilot's yoke. I really like the new shop and a few guys on this site have used him. Not only knowledgeable, but also someone who clearly knows how to do wiring.