Warbird Flying Club - Early Developmental Phase

[Seth]

Hello fellow MooneySpacers-

 

The purpose of this post is to receive constructive criticism and input over the following idea.  The following information is not that well organized, but it’s time to throw it out to what I consider a great source of information (stop laughing).  Once I hear what anyone has to say, a re-evaluation will occur, and then a more formalized plan will be posted for further evaluation – then – I may actually move forward and create a T-6 Flying Club. 

 

I have been toying with the idea of creating a warbird flying club for a few reasons. 

 

1)  I love aviation

2)  I have a special place in my heart for WWII aviation (my grandfather flew B-17Gs)

3)  I’d like to assist in preserving the flying history of these aircraft and share them with other pilots

4)  Share the costs of owning / operating a vintage warbird.

5)  There are many more reasons – this could go on forever

 

The idea is to start with the T-6  Texan / SNJ / Harvard (probably the T-6, specifically the T-6G) – The Pilot Maker (though the Mooney has done a good job of that so far).

 

Though I’m still hashing out the details, the basics are as follows:

 

-This club is meant for people who already own and operate their own aircraft or who have access to airplanes and fly regularly. 

-There will be 15 members initially

-Buy in will be $12000 - $15,000

-There will be two aircraft:  a T-6 and a tail-wheel trainer.

-The T-6, without saying, will be the flagship and primary aircraft in the fleet.

-The Trainer (yet to be decided – input please) will be in order to build tail-wheel time for insurance purposes, and to practice technique at a much lower cost per hour than bashing up a T-6 with sloppy landings, etc.  The trainer will almost invariably have more hours per year than the T-6 (yes, I know they are both “trainers” – The T-6 is the warbird, the tail-wheel trainer is the trainer).

-Members will pay a fixed monthly cost and be billed for their hourly use of the aircraft (a separate rate).  Example:  Fixed per month would be $450, with a wet $300 per hour for the T-6 and wet $70 per hour for the trainer (NO, I have not yet determined those costs fixed or hourly yet – this was pure example).  I have not decided if there will be different ownership levels, but I’m going to at this time lean against separate ownership levels.  If you are in the club, it’s to build time so you can fly the T-6 – even if you don’t have any T-6 time yet – Also, that will keep the members of the club financially at a level where they can afford to be in the T-6 arena.  They will self select themselves to a degree.  We may very well make an exception for those who regularly fly tail-wheel aircraft and can prove it.  There will most likely not be an ownership level just for the tail wheel trainer.

-Insurance will most likely dictate specific dual time in the T-6 before solo flight is allowed – an instructor or two will be contracted by the flying club for these purposes – and to checkout  and teach tail wheel flying in the trainer.

-Depending on insurance, and of course safety research, two or so hours of tail-wheel time will be required within the last 30 days to fly the T-6 solo (after a checkout of course).  These two hours if not flying the T-6 regularly can be accomplished by flying the tail-wheel trainer. 

-Should the member operate a separate tail-wheel aircraft in the previous 30 days, documentation of that can easily be taken in lieu of flying the club’s trainer.  This is again simply for safety purposes – we want to make sure the pilots are not shaking off rust in the T-6 but in other tail-wheel aircraft (more forgiving aircraft).

-ACRO – The trainer will most likely not be an ACRO aircraft – insurance, acquisition, and maintenance reasons – you can have ACRO fun in the T-6.  In the future – a separate third ACRO aircraft may make sense – unless the best trainer for the money is in fact an ACRO aircraft (when considering step up hours for insurance purposes to the T-6).

-The Aircraft will both be based at the same airport – not sure which one yet, but most likely in the mid-Atlantic region.  I’m currently based at KGAI – just north of Washington DC, in the SFRA, but not the FRZ.  As the creator and probably first managing director of this club, it would be nice to have at the same airport, but most likely will be elsewhere where fuel and hanger space is cheaper (and available – hanger is a must).

-Members would not necessarily live near the airport, as again, most would have access to other aircraft at probably fly in for their flights, and then fly home. 

-Yes – XC trips would be allowed, but that most likely wouldn’t happen often, as the trainer would probably be slow, and the T-6 per hour would most likely have higher operating costs per hour than their respectable other aircraft.  Flying the T-6 to another airport for a $500 hamburger run would however, I must admit, be pretty cool.

-I understand that with 15 people touching, flying the aircraft, and working the controls that it will not be the same experience as sole ownership.  However, with specific operating rules in place, formalized checkouts annually or semi-annually (still needs to be decided), and other restrictions in place, hopefully the club mentality will be slightly different (though this may be hopeful thinking).  This is a warbird after all – the field of pilots, again, will be self selecting.

-A corporation would be created to own the aircraft and in turn the members would own shares in the corporation.  Any funds held in excess would be toward future maintenance and upgrades, therefore, there will be zero profit.  I’ll look into non-profit status and what it entails, benefits of, etc . . .

-This does seem like a lot of work for simply owning a piece of a flying a T-6 on my part, but if I were to own the T-6 alone, it would not be flown as much and this allows others to all jointly share the cost of owning their very own warbird – who knows, from this group, in another 10 years, we may be acquire a P-51 (dream big – shoot for the moon – and if you miss, you’ve got the stars).  We’ll save the P-51 talk for another time.

 

Of course I’m considering insurance as a main obstacle to fruition, as I have heard from multiple sources that it’s hard to get more than 5 or 6 pilots on a T-6 policy.  I’ve only spoken with one insurance broker so far, and that was in passing a few months ago, but I’ll have to look into this more.

 

As a member, you would be a custodian of history, and enjoy that ownership feeling that you currently have when simply viewing your very own Mooney – It’s a feeling that is very hard to describe.   I do understand the costs involved, and all potential members would go through a reasonable application processes in order to ensure that it makes sense to be part of the group (we don’t want someone with poor credit, 8 wrecked airplanes, etc . . .).

 

I have read a lot about flying clubs, partnerships, and such and do not take this lightly – many say it is harder to manage than a marriage – and yes, I’m not married yet! 

 

I’ve rambled enough about this, and as promised above, it’s not entirely clear, but please do post as I’m thanking all of you in advance for your information contributions.

 

Last but not least, I of course plan to keep my Mooney!

 

-Seth

[Carl S]

It sounds like an interesting project. I am just trying to understand some of your numbers.

15 people wuth a $12.5K by in means the corporation has $187,500 in initial capital. That is to purchase both aircraft, initiate the lease on hangar space, and initiate the corporation?

15 people with a monthly $450 payment would give the corporation $6750 per month operating capital. That would cover hangar and insurance plus anual inspection (-repairs)? (e.g.)

$300 per hour for the T-6 would cover Gas, oil, tires, engine/prop/avionics reserve and maintainance reserve? (e.g.)

$70 per hour for the trainer (Maybe an L4 or a Vans RV-X) would cover Gas, oil, tires, engine/prop/avionics reserve and maintainance reserve? (e.g.)

Is there a minimum number of hours per month that the corporation expects the T-6 to fly for break even or is that covered in the $450/month?

Would there be a minimum required number of hours per month per pilot? (Aside from the two hours in trainer time?)

If I understand correctly, for an example, the cost to play would be $450 + $140 (trainer time) + 300(n) where n is hours in the T-6, or $890 for the first hour of T-6 time.  (Two hours would be about $1190 or $595/hr -- three hours $1490 or 496/hr).  I know trainer time could be taken out if one flew the T-6 2 hrs per month, and that there are other permutations of the formula for T-6 actual cost per hour.

If I were investing in the business model I'd want to know that the demographics of the area showed a confluence of people with large disposable incomes and love of aviation. I'd like to know that my investment was nt bound for chapter 7, 11, 13, or the like.

Sure, flying out a couple of hours for an $1800 dollar hamburger would be great fun. However it's something that a specialized segment of society is going to be able to afford. If you are counting on the majority of the share holders to fly only the trainer then the areas demographics can fall to the sub $100,000 crowd.  There may be a market for that. However the $450 portion of the fixed costs may drive some of them away. 

Still, it could work and it is an interesting excercise in planning and project management. I wish you luck and sucess!

 

[Seth]

Carl-

Thanks for your input.  Though the numbers I suggested before were pure example, I went to a spreadsheet and put some numbers together that are slightly more accurate - I then rounded up, as I would rather have more emergency funds than not, and everything is always more expenseive, no matter how hard to you try to plan:

Annual costs for the T-6:  About $33,600, so per member per month:  $373.33

Annual costs for the trainer:  About $13,600, so per member per month:  $78.55

Total together for the budled package is $448.89, so we'll round up to $450.00 (not bad for the $450 pure example in the first email!).

Hourly though, I was off:

Hourly for the T-6 comes out to about:  $201.50 per hour

Hourly for the Trainer comes out to about: $65.00 per hour

So round up to $215 and $75 repectively.

Annual costs included Annual, Insurance, Hnager, and random MX.  Hourly included Fuel, oil, engine replacmenet fund, and mx (oil changes and unscheduled reseve).

T-6

Annual $10,000

Insurance $18,000

Hanger $3600

Random MX $2000

Trainer:

Annual $3000

Insurance $5000

Hanger $3600

Random $2000

 

Another way to price it would to include one hour of T-6 time in with every month's payment that can be stored for up to six months.  There would be more work on the accounting side (but programs can be set up for that) however there would be more incentive to fly the planes.

If one were to even attempt to own a T-6 alone, it would take a large sum of money.  $1000 or so per month for an hour in a T-6 and potentially some tailwheel time to individuals who own their own aircraft and have the disposable income but not enough to own a T-6 outright may be the exact candidate for this program.  By having it based somewhere between DC, Northern VA, Baltimore, close enough to Philly and less than an hour and a half from Pittsburgh may be a great opportunity to find 15 individiuals who do have that sort of disposable income and who have a love for avaition.   

I for one cannot own a T-6 outright, and afford to fly it, but with shared expenses . . . some opportunities could lie there.  When I see certain aircraft on the ramp, parked on the flightlines, and in and out of different hangers - I think it's worth putting in the time to go ahead and come up with a plan.  Shoudl I determine it feasable, I'll put together a package and hold meetings a different local aiports - however we're not there yet.

Thanks again Carl for your thoughts - I'll play around with the numbers and come up with some varraiables and permutations for actual cost per hour per month of T-6 time.  And remember, we haven't included the instructor costs - $35 - $45 per hour.

Any other thoughts out there?  Has anyone heard of this type of club operate before and was it successful or did it "crash and burn."  Also, I don't plan to move forward if the chapter 7/11/13 looks inevitable.

 

 

-Seth

[N601RX]

There is a warbird Club in that flies out of Destin, Fl.  However each person owns their own plane.  There are several T6's.  Sadly they lost 2 of them with crew at different times this year.  They might be able to provide some realistic expenses.

[Carl S]

Keep working the business plan Seth.  I think the DC, northern VA, MD area may just have the demographics you need to pull something like this off.

If you could get another T-6 owner involved and hybridize what that Florida group have going you might have something great.

 

[Seth]

Taildragger wise - what does everybody suggest for a taildragger trainer - low cost (both aquisition, operating, insurance, durability, and maintenance).  Metal or fabric will be decided later - opinions here would be great. 

I've done some research and looked at the Champ, Citabria, Pipers, Cessnas, Taylorcraft, etc . . . What have you flown, and what do you suggest (even if you haven't flown it).

[N601RX]

http://www.gauntletwarbirds.com/rates.html

 

[DaV8or]

Quote: Seth

Taildragger wise - what does everybody suggest for a taildragger trainer - low cost (both aquisition, operating, insurance, durability, and maintenance).  Metal or fabric will be decided later - opinions here would be great. 

I've done some research and looked at the Champ, Citabria, Pipers, Cessnas, Taylorcraft, etc . . . What have you flown, and what do you suggest (even if you haven't flown it).

[Seth]

Thank you Dave for the great Idea with the Globe Swift - I originally was looking at a swift when I decided to get a Mooney!  The swift gives both tailwheel and retract time, which will asssist tremendously with insurance.  Also, it'll add an element to the group that I had not really deicded on - having access to an aircraft that you can truly take for the weekend or for a longer cross country. 

If a luscombe, pacer, cessna 120/140 were originally purchased for the tailwheel trainer, well, they are not really cross country machines.  The swift could very well work here.   The group is meant for people who have access to another airplane, but if the swift is in the inventory, maybe it will make them change their mind about the larger monthly costs since they'll have access to the T-6.  Maybe they'll give up their share of a 172 or such. 

Does anyone have any time in a Swift?  While we're at it, what about a Luscombe, Pacer, 140, Citabria etc . . .