Raptor05121 Posted July 31, 2016 Report Share Posted July 31, 2016 I've been keeping my ear to the ground and decided to look into the low-cost options instead of sticking my head in a hole until 2019. Since my plane is well into the lower-end of the "avionics" spectrum, and I am not planning to add a panel-mounted GPS anytime soon, I think I might go with the NavWorx ADS600-B remote-mount unit. It is VERY attractively priced starting at $1,799.00, but with the options and accessories I need, it comes up to $2,200. The great news is it will remote-mount into the avionics bay in the tail of the Mooney and ties into my existing Mode-C transponder. That's UAT 978 "Out" and it also has "In" capability via WiFi for my tablet. Talking to a few owners, a couple have been saying $1,000-$1,500 for a remote install from an avionics shop. Since they are going to tear out the interior to run the wires, I figure it's probably a good time to let them install an audio panel and run jacks to all four seats (I am running a 2-place portable intercom velcro'ed to the carpet). Of course I'm still waiting for my plane to come out of annual, and to get some time in it before I plan on bringing it back to another shop, but I figure unless something cheaper or more "bare-bones" friendly comes out, I will probably have this late next year. Looking at total cost of $4,500-$5,000 for purchase of ADS-B in/out unit and intercom/audio panel as well as installation. Not a bad start for a my '63. If anyone has any experience with this unit or other low-cost options, I'm all ears! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glafaille Posted July 31, 2016 Report Share Posted July 31, 2016 I'm considering one of the Stratus ESG transponder models. ADS-B in and out with a built in WAAS GPS source and a new transponder too. The cheaper model is just ADS-B out but will work with a portable Stratus. On the other hand I've been reading a heated discussion on another board concerning the airlines adaptation of WAAS & ADS-B. It seems that there is considerable "push-back" from some of the airlines, they want a delay in the mandate so they can instead equip with newer technology that they think will be superior to WAAS. Multi channel or multi frequency GPS should be widely available around 2018 or 2019. Should make for an interesting couple of years on the regulation front. I'm waiting at least 18 months to see how this shakes out. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukejb Posted July 31, 2016 Report Share Posted July 31, 2016 I am going to continue to wait.... Prices continue to go down and they continue to come out with better options. If everybody else will wait too FAA will have to do something different. Maybe Offer more than the measly $500 incentive.... I really don't like the invasion of privacy either. Not in a really big hurry to have my n number plastered up on a computer screen for anyone to see every time I decide to go for a flight. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raptor05121 Posted July 31, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 31, 2016 Just now, lukejb said: I am going to continue to wait.... Prices continue to go down and they continue to come out with better options. If everybody else will wait too FAA will have to do something different. Maybe Offer more than the measly $500 incentive.... I really don't like the invasion of privacy either. Not in a really big hurry to have my n number plastered up on a computer screen for anyone to see every time I decide to go for a flight. Some models, including Navworx, has the option to display "N0000" when squawking VFR. As long as you don't fly IFR or request FF, you should be anonymous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted July 31, 2016 Report Share Posted July 31, 2016 If I were starting from zero, I'd look to add a WAAS GPS first. That will get you much improved IFR capability and probably updated comm's as well. Then add a second hand GTX330ES for about $2500 and your ADSB compliant. Adding a transponder with WAAS doesn't seem to give me much, whereas a WAAS GPS does. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukejb Posted July 31, 2016 Report Share Posted July 31, 2016 I did not know there was an option to stay anonymous. That's good I like that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1524J Posted July 31, 2016 Report Share Posted July 31, 2016 50 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said: If I were starting from zero, I'd look to add a WAAS GPS first. That will get you much improved IFR capability and probably updated comm's as well. Then add a second hand GTX330ES for about $2500 and your ADSB compliant. Adding a transponder with WAAS doesn't seem to give me much, whereas a WAAS GPS does. Couldn't agree more! I've got a very capable IFR platform but realize now and even more so in the future that a panel mount WAAS gps is going to be essential, especially if you fly into smaller airports on a regular basis. I'm hoping that waiting until I can afford both WAAS gps and ADSB will save money on the install cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy95W Posted July 31, 2016 Report Share Posted July 31, 2016 I just bought the Freeflight RANGR Lite in June for $1995 (before the price went up to $2995). It is a complete system, nothing else needed to buy. It also does anonymous mode. I'll be installing it to take advantage of the $500 gu'mint money. The kicker for me was when I found out that Freeflight builds the UAT ADS-B boxes for both Aspen and Bendix King. Of course, that was before the price went up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raptor05121 Posted July 31, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 31, 2016 1 hour ago, gsxrpilot said: If I were starting from zero, I'd look to add a WAAS GPS first. That will get you much improved IFR capability and probably updated comm's as well. Then add a second hand GTX330ES for about $2500 and your ADSB compliant. Adding a transponder with WAAS doesn't seem to give me much, whereas a WAAS GPS does. Simply adding a used GNS430 will add $10,000 to my install cost. That's 80% of the value of my plane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsengle Posted July 31, 2016 Report Share Posted July 31, 2016 1 hour ago, gsxrpilot said: If I were starting from zero, I'd look to add a WAAS GPS first. That will get you much improved IFR capability and probably updated comm's as well. Then add a second hand GTX330ES for about $2500 and your ADSB compliant. Adding a transponder with WAAS doesn't seem to give me much, whereas a WAAS GPS does. Simply adding a used GNS430 will add $10,000 to my install cost. That's 80% of the value of my plane Planning on selling soon? If not, it's whether the utility makes sense, regardless of the value of your plane.... Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raptor05121 Posted July 31, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 31, 2016 Just now, N1395W said: I just bought the Freeflight RANGR Lite in June for $1995 (before the price went up to $2995). It is a complete system, nothing else needed to buy. It also does anonymous mode. I'll be installing it to take advantage of the $500 gu'mint money. The kicker for me was when I found out that Freeflight builds the UAT ADS-B boxes for both Aspen and Bendix King. Of course, that was before the price went up. I see that their In & Out model is a full $1,000 more expensive than Navworx's unit and looks and does exactly the same system. You got a deal there. Just now, gsengle said: Planning on selling soon? If not, it's whether the utility makes sense, regardless of the value of your plane.... Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Lol no. I bought the thing a year ago and haven't even logged an hour in it yet. The utility aspect of a bare-bones model with no other upgrades doesn't seem to add much. Yes, I'd like to get my IFR, but I'm not going to be driving to the airport with in IFR conditions to go flying in this thing. More of a "trick up the sleeve" if I need it. I planned on keeping it 5 years and go look at a J or maybe something with more room. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glafaille Posted July 31, 2016 Report Share Posted July 31, 2016 If you already have a NON-waas IFR GPS, replacing it with a waas gps will not buy you much more capability for your money. A bit lower on some approaches and the ability to fly some RNAV sids and stars is about all you will get. You can get ADS-B In traffic and weather now for less than $200 using Stratux and your Ipad with Foreflight. How many of us REALLY shoot approaches to actual ILS weather minimums in single engine airplanes? I don't intend to ever fly in such weather and I have ILS just in case. Long tunnel, no cheese! I'll wait. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetdriven Posted July 31, 2016 Report Share Posted July 31, 2016 Isn't a waas GPS position source required to meet the 2020 mandate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsengle Posted July 31, 2016 Report Share Posted July 31, 2016 Isn't a waas GPS position source required to meet the 2020 mandate? Yes. But also note a number of ADSB units have built in GPS... Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tony Posted July 31, 2016 Report Share Posted July 31, 2016 3 hours ago, gsengle said: Yes. But also note a number of ADSB units have built in GPS... Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk That's not technically correct but in our bug smashers, its the cheapest way to obtain certification. The ADSB - out position source has to meet the performance requirements as outlined in appendix 2 of AC 20-165A. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsengle Posted July 31, 2016 Report Share Posted July 31, 2016 How is that not technically correct? There are a couple of units with certified integrated position sources. My Lynx sits next to a 530w, but doesn't use the position from the 530w The stratus esg and there is a king unit also I believe with their own integrated GPS units. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glafaille Posted July 31, 2016 Report Share Posted July 31, 2016 Interesting!! I found this on the FAA website that seems to say that waas position is NOT REQUIRED for the ADS-B mandate. Scroll down to about the 5th question or so. http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/ato/service_units/techops/navservices/gnss/faq/waas/ However, I have read on other message boards that since legacy non-waas gps units are no longer manufactured, the net result is all ADS-B position data is likely waas generated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hector Posted July 31, 2016 Report Share Posted July 31, 2016 How is that not technically correct? There are a couple of units with certified integrated position sources. My Lynx sits next to a 530w, but doesn't use the position from the 530w The stratus esg and there is a king unit also I believe with their own integrated GPS units. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk The newest Garmin transponder GTX345 is also an all in one box with built in WAAS GPS (it comes in two versions one with built in WAAS GPS and another without it in case you already have a certified WAAS GPS). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hector Posted July 31, 2016 Report Share Posted July 31, 2016 Interesting!! I found this on the FAA website that seems to say that waas position is NOT REQUIRED for the ADS-B mandate. Scroll down to about the 5th question or so. http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/ato/service_units/techops/navservices/gnss/faq/waas/ However, I have read on other message boards that since legacy non-waas gps units are no longer manufactured, the net result is all ADS-B position data is likely waas generated. Sat on at least 3 ADS-B forums at Oshkosh. In all cases even the FAA guys said you needed a WAAS GPS source and specifically mentioned that a non-WAAS source would not be acceptable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glafaille Posted July 31, 2016 Report Share Posted July 31, 2016 As provided above, the FAA's own website seems to indicate waas is not required to meet the mandate. Doesn't much matter as it is my understanding that there is no economical way to make a non-waas gps talk to an ADS-B transponder. We had a representative at the National Business Aircraft Association in Las Vegas about 6 months ago and the FAA folks hardly knew any more than we did about the issue. They were friendly but could provide no verifiable information. There is much uncertainty and misinformation that surrounds ADS-B. Comply or not, pay your money and take your chance. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsengle Posted July 31, 2016 Report Share Posted July 31, 2016 Probably just outdated web content you found Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgePerry Posted July 31, 2016 Report Share Posted July 31, 2016 Garmin GDL88 with flight stream 210 is a great combo, and is what I fly with GDL88 - $3500 FS210 - $975 Yep you can get ADS-B in and out cheaper if you look hard, but the functionality that this combo gives is amazing when paired with Garmin Pilot or ForeFlight apps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyboy0681 Posted July 31, 2016 Report Share Posted July 31, 2016 Just now, GeorgePerry said: Garmin GDL88 with flight stream 210 is a great combo, and is what I fly with GDL88 - $3500 FS210 - $975 Yep you can get ADS-B in and out cheaper if you look hard, but the functionality that this combo gives is amazing when paired with Garmin Pilot or ForeFlight apps. Same setup here, but you really have to shop around when selecting a shop. As I had written about here, I had estimates ranging from $6k to $9k for the identical setup. The shop that we had it done for $6k did a great job for us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruiser Posted July 31, 2016 Report Share Posted July 31, 2016 A very interesting thing to note is there were no NEW units announced by any manufacturer at Oshkosh this week that I am aware of. This would seem to point to a market that is established. I doubt there will be much of any additional incentives offered from now on. As for the FAA, they could care less. The rules go into effect and if you don't comply, well........... you will not be in the system. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glafaille Posted August 1, 2016 Report Share Posted August 1, 2016 Remember, if you don't fly in Class A, B or C airspace then ADS-B is NOT required as I understand it. If anyone wants to chime in with different info please feel free. Maybe I have it all wrong. Cruiser: I don't think the market is as established as you may think. We are still quite a ways out and there is much uncertainty and resistance from big players. The FAA is getting worried as indicated by the rebate program. Finally, the Part 23 re-write is on the way which may enable the installation of much less expensive non-TSO ADS-B solutions. We might see a flood of cheaper, even portable solutions as we get closer. No way is the FAA going to risk shuting down aviation in this country for ADS-B! It's just like a game of chicken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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