Colorado Flying in Ovation

[Texasmooneypilot]

I am based in North Texas and we are considering a trip to Pueblo, CO.   I do not have any experience flying into higher elevation airports since I have had my private and Instrument rating.  I would like to get some feedback from fellow Mooney Pilots on proper leaning procedures upon arrival and departure at airports with higher elevations.    Any tips would be appreciated.

Thanks.

[StevenL757]

I'd also like to hear more from others who have had a lot of this experience...specifically, best-practices around leaning at high-elevation airports and such.  Although I've had plenty of mountain flying courses and experience when living in Seattle, physiology certs and training, etc, and a well-equipped aircraft (oxygen, TKS, 310hp, etc.), I could use a refresher before feeling confident-enough to fly in those environments.  Grateful for any guidance.

[N201MKTurbo]

Pueblo isn't even in the mountains, it is still on the plains. There is no problem flying from Texas to Pueblo.

[Texasmooneypilot]

Yes, I am aware of that but it does have a field elevation of 4700 feet.  I am mainly interested in proper leaning procedures during landing, startup, and departure at higher elevation airports.

 

[carusoam]

Expect mountain flying training for N/A engines would apply to the O3 as it would with any other N/A plane.

Getting mountain flying training specifically for the O3 would be great.

I did some searching on 'Mountain training' in the search box.  There is a fair amount of returns for recommendations.

A PPP class from MAPA was taught in Denver... That might cover some of it.

We also have some CFIIs that had made some recommendations.  But not O3 specific.

One of my favorite MSers has an Acclaim out in Denver.   JoeZ might have a recommendation for where to go for training out that way.  

Things that come to mind.  See if that sheds any light on the situation?

Another thing to become familiar with would be leaning using the white box method on the G1000.  Aka The target EGT method.  Or blue box method for the O1....

Best regards,

-a-

[N201MKTurbo]

You won't have any problems. If you wanted to lean it a bit for takeoff, that would be Ok, but if you operated it the same as you do normally it would be OK too.

When you are climbing out do you normally lean the engine at 4700 feet? Pueblo has long runways, you will make it.

Edited July 14, 2016 by N201MKTurbo

[Brian Scranton]

1 hour ago, Texasmooneypilot said:

I am based in North Texas and we are considering a trip to Pueblo, CO.   I do not have any experience flying into higher elevation airports since I have had my private and Instrument rating.  I would like to get some feedback from fellow Mooney Pilots on proper leaning procedures upon arrival and departure at airports with higher elevations.    Any tips would be appreciated.

Thanks.

You can/should go full rich and not have a problem particularly on arrival. Really, 4700ft is not an issue. On departure, during run up, you can lean for best power (maybe about a 1/2-1 inch back from full rich) see your MP bump up and use that setting. If I depart at 5800 from my home airport full rich, I may get a little cough as I pass 1500rpm for a second...so I pull the mixture back an inch in my M20F (IO360) and that solves it. But, I also have a TN, so once I am off the ground, I push full rich to keep my CHTs below 400. You may notice that it will take a little longer to get to 70mph on your takeoff roll, but no big deal because Pueblo has LONG runways. It going to be HOT...so ground roll, CHTs, and climb will all be stressed but within acceptable limits if you are nicely under max gross (by at least 100#s). HAVE FUN!

[ArtVandelay]

On landing I just keep it the target EGT

On startup I lean aggressively as always, then at runup I go rich until till it stops complaining, do the runup as normal, then throttle back up, wait for EGTs to stabilize and then enrich until EGTs drop 150 degrees, that should put me comfortably on the rich side but close to max power. I departed Albuquerque using this method and it worked well.

[Joe Zuffoletto]

I take off and land full rich in the Acclaim and I'd probably do the same in the Ovation, unless the density altitude was really high.

This time of year, high density altitudes on hot days are your biggest concern with a NA engine. Denver Centennial has a field elevation of 5,800'. A few days ago it got up to 98F and the density altitude was 9,600'.

You can lean for best power before takeoff, which is what I do in my NA RV-8, but then you'll need to watch your CHT's like a hawk in the climb. In my RV on hot days they actually get too hot, so now I lean for best power for takeoff, climb to 1,000'AGL, then richen the mixture a bit to keep the cylinders happy until I'm in level cruise.

With regards to mountain flying courses/refreshers, all the flight schools at KAPA and KBJC offer excellent training for that.

I'm a Colorado native and I've never been to Pueblo, except for the airport. Give me a PIREP! One thing I've heard that you must do in Pueblo is go to Gray's Coors Tavern and order a slopper, which is a hamburger patty floating in a bowl of green chili. I'm going to fly down there with my wife pretty soon to do just that.

Have a great trip!

[peevee]

6 minutes ago, Joe Zuffoletto said:

 

I'm a Colorado native and I've never been to Pueblo, except for the airport. Give me a PIREP! One thing I've heard that you must do in Pueblo is go to Gray's Coors Tavern and order a slopper, which is a hamburger patty floating in a bowl of green chili. I'm going to fly down there with my wife pretty soon to do just that.

Have a great trip!

I have only been once. It's OK, I think they have fixed the ramp markings so it's more evident where the ramp ends and where the taxiway begins. It was pilot deviation central before.

There was a place on field called b52's I believe. Decent food, I think they have since closed but I don't know why I think that.

I don't care to loiter in that corridor from APA south to PUB so I don't really feel a compelling need to return.

[midlifeflyer]

Your goal with high density altitude (and Pueblo in the summer is definitely high density altitude) is to obtain best power with a little extra fuel flow for cooling. The biggest difference is whether the airplane is turbocharged or not, since turbocharging negates the need to lean for the takeoff itself. 

Depending on your instrument configuration, you may have fuel flow and EGT targets you can aim for but, the following shortcut procedure is pretty standard among Colorado pilots in all normally-aspirated makes & models (I flew and taught in Colorado for 20 years) for getting in the right ballpark, which is really all you need to do (many POH don't even call for leaning until 3,000' D-Alt. It's a good idea to lean for takeoff lower than that but it gives you an idea how much leeway is built in). 

When you are ready to do the run-up:

1. Enrichen the mixture (you should have leaned it for taxi, so you need to enrichen it for the run-up power demand). You don't really need to go back to full rich at this point, but there's no harm in doing so until you learn about where to set it)
2. Go to run-up power. At run-up power, your constant speed prop acts a lot like a fixed pitch prop. Besides, airpanes wit more powerful engines may have some issues holding the brakes at full power.
3. Lean. You will initially see a rise in RPM as you reach best power and then a drop. When you see the drop, enrichen back to peak.
4. Enrichen more. On airplanes with a mixture vernier control, 3-4 twists will do it. Without a vernier, about 1/4-1/2 tends to take care of it. The enrichment is for 2 reasons: to approximate the additional requirements for takeoff and for engine cooling.

In most airplanes, this will be exactly what you need for takeoff (and a lot of folks stop here) but bear in mind that this is an approximation= hat needs to be cross-checked, at least until you have learned that the run-up technique works for your airplane.  The cross-check should be done at full power. If the brakes will hold, you can do it while still at the runup area or wait for the beginning the takeoff roll. But I usually do that final check on the takeoff roll  - gettingexpected MP or RPM, meeting fuel flow targets, for example) . I have never had to move the mixture more than a 1/2 twist - takes only a second.
 

[chrisk]

I have some experience visiting higher altitude airports, but I don't spend enough time flying there to have any real expertise.  It's maybe 4 times a year. I think the post by midlifeflyer sums it up really well, based on what I have seen presented in classes.

I have a 231.  It's a turbo, so take off is at 40 inches and full rich.  There is some discussion to be had before getting to that point.  My 231 is somewhat rich at idle.   Leaning for taxi at high altitude is a must.  I've often wondered what the right procedure is for a high DA take off.  Typically I start the take off run reasonably leaned out, and go full rich as the take off roll starts.  --Sort of a advance throttle, count to 2, mixture rich, back to watching the throttle.  Anyway its before you feel the turbo really kick in and the engine doesn't stumble like going rich before full throttle.

There is also the issue of starting the plane.   I've found it can be easy to flood the engine at higher altitude.  I've modified my start up procedure to open the throttle a bit more.  --anyway, you may want to read the flooded engine start procedure in your POH

[midlifeflyer]

12 minutes ago, chrisk said:

I have some experience visiting higher altitude airports, but I don't spend enough time flying there to have any real expertise.  It's maybe 4 times a year. I think the post by midlifeflyer sums it up really well, based on what I have seen presented in classes.

I have a 231.  It's a turbo, so take off is at 40 inches and full rich.  There is some discussion to be had before getting to that point.  My 231 is somewhat rich at idle.   Leaning for taxi at high altitude is a must.  I've often wondered what the right procedure is for a high DA take off.  Typically I start the take off run reasonably leaned out, and go full rich as the take off roll starts.  --Sort of a advance throttle, count to 2, mixture rich, back to watching the throttle.  Anyway its before you feel the turbo really kick in and the engine doesn't stumble like going rich before full throttle.

In a turbo, the real issue is what you do before takeoff and when you go to full rich. You need to be leaned for taxi or there is a danger of fouling plugs. When flying turbos, I always leaned for the run-up also. Then, just as you might put on the fuel pump as you cross the hold line onto the runway, do the same going to full rich.

[1524J]

I'm based out of central Texas and had the same concerns about high density altitude airports when I took the Mooney (C model w/ an IO360) to Rawlins Wyoming for my son to use. It sits at 6800'. Midlifeflyer clearly has experience in this area. My only concern....I've never been a fan of full power run-ups on the ramp. We leaned at normal run-up RPM (1700 ish) then when we started our take off roll, leaned to max RPM, then enrichened a few turns of the vernier knob. I can see where some might have concerns about multitasking during the takeoff roll but it really was a non-event. Density altitude was around 9500' and I was trying to open the hatch beneath our feet so I could do the Fred Flintstone, Barney Rubble shuffle and get the Mooney moving.  We were just shy of 800 lbs  loading and were off the ground I'd estimate in the 2500'- 3000' range. Rawlins has a intersecting runway at 3500' and we were off the ground well before reaching the intersection.

As a side note, Tyler went to preflight the Mooney a couple of days ago and this bad boy was sitting on the ramp.

[Jeff_S]

Do the Zoomies still practice at Pueblo? That would be the USAF cadets, who at one point in time were like a swarm of flies with all the activity in their piston trainers (Diamond Katanas I believe..or maybe Cirri. I remember they were all white.) That was one of my recollections about landing there...the other was that I got an instruction to LAHSO, which as a fairly new pilot freaked me out a little bit but I made it work. Oh, and we ate at the restaurant on the field and my brother had a chili cheeseburger, which didn't sit too well on the bumpy ride back over Monument pass into Centennial. No efflux from the oral region, but boy I sure wished I had a window I could open up to protect my sense of smell!

[FoxMike]

I have just scanned (not read) this thread so my input may be extremely repetitious.  First, if you arrive at the wrong time traffic can be heavy as the student training period may be up and lots of D 20s will be inbound.  Next, leaning your engine when DA is much above 6000' is important.  If the engine is too rich you will get noticeably less power.  If you are too lean the engine might quit.  I know of an accident about a decade ago where the pilot thought he should run the electric fuel pump at takeoff.  Engine died the pilot almost did.  Engine can be leaned after mag check (same RPM).  Engine sound and smoothness on takeoff are best indicators of mixture.  Out of KPUB the runways are long enough a poor leaning job will not result in an accident unless you are way too lean.  To practice lean the engine while flying up from Texas.  Lean very slowly and notice the change in sounds the engine as it gets lean and peak mixture is reached.  Lean a little of the back side of peak and notice the changes.  Be sure you are not above 70% power while you are doing this.  Good Luck!

[cbarry]

I fly an Eagle 2 and have been in and out of Raton NM a number of times during the summer--which is just a little higher field elevation than Pueblo.  I'm also based in Wichita Falls, TX.  The DA at both airports can get fairly high rather quickly as the day goes on.  For start up, one of the easiest things I've found to do is after priming (everything forward) with the low boost pump I start cranking with the mixture at full lean and throttle cracked and then advance the mixture until it fires off--and leave it lean as it starts.  Takeoff--mixture adjusted to get to the blue arc and its fine.  

[midlifeflyer]

30 minutes ago, cbarry said:

I fly an Eagle 2 and have been in and out of Raton NM a number of times during the summer--which is just a little higher field elevation than Pueblo.  I'm also based in Wichita Falls, TX.  The DA at both airports can get fairly high rather quickly as the day goes on.  For start up, one of the easiest things I've found to do is after priming (everything forward) with the low boost pump I start cranking with the mixture at full lean and throttle cracked and then advance the mixture until it fires off--and leave it lean as it starts.  Takeoff--mixture adjusted to get to the blue arc and its fine.  

Absolutely. In a normally aspirated airplane there is almost never a reason to go full rich. I've seen airplane engines quit during taxi.

[peevee]

1 hour ago, Jeff_S said:

Do the Zoomies still practice at Pueblo? That would be the USAF cadets,

Yes.

[peevee]

31 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

Absolutely. In a normally aspirated airplane there is almost never a reason to go full rich. I've seen airplane engines quit during taxi.

I noticed our 231 won't idle full rich... at leadville. I'm so used to never leaning anymore it took me a second to figure out why the fire went out. Next time around I just kept it rolling

Edited July 14, 2016 by peevee

[gsxrpilot]

As you might have seen in the "Today's Flight 2016" we're on a little warmup lap around the West before Oshkosh in our C. We landed and took off out of Flagstaff where the runway is just over 7000 ft. elevation. Lined up on the end of the runway and push the throttle up to about 2000 RPM and lean to get best power. You'll know it when you get it. Release the brakes and richen just a little bit to maintain best power at now full throttle.

Today we crossed the mountains flying from Seattle to Coeur d'Alene. It took very steady, Vy climb all the way to 11,500 to comfortably clear the mountains. But the C even at gross weight performed just fine.

I don't think you'll have any issues with 4000 ft elevation or so. 

[Hank]

2 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

As you might have seen in the "Today's Flight 2016" we're on a little warmup lap around the West before Oshkosh in our C. We landed and took off out of Flagstaff where the runway is just over 7000 ft. elevation. Lined up on the end of the runway and push the throttle up to about 2000 RPM and lean to get best power. You'll know it when you get it. Release the brakes and richen just a little bit to maintain best power at now full throttle.

Today we crossed the mountains flying from Seattle to Coeur d'Alene. It took very steady, Vy climb all the way to 11,500 to comfortably clear the mountains. But the C even at gross weight performed just fine.

I don't think you'll have any issues with 4000 ft elevation or so. 

My loaded C did well across the Dakotas and Wyoming also. But like the OP, I was worried about DA, not Altitude. Didn't think about it until listening to AWOS at KRAP, said something about Density Altitude around 6600' and to follow the recommendations in your POH. Oh, crap! How do I land in High DA? Sure can't lean for best power, that's all I'd ever heard. So I just landed, a little worried about the left crosswind and very worried about taxiing with a ~30 knot tailwind . . . 

Had no problems. At takeoff in the morning several days later, it was nice and cool, unlike when I landed at lunchtime.

[larryb]

Target EGT is the key. This is the EGT you have on a sea level full rich takeoff. Set mixture to this point for both takeoff and landing. Once you have done this a few times you will know the approximate mixture position and fuel flow.

For my J at Truckee (5900 feet) it is about 1" out and 14.5 gph. Sea level is 18.5 gph.

[FoxMike]

Something else I thought about that might be important to your approach to KPUB.  The Airforce is training in DA20s.  The airplane is the size of a gnat and painted white.  Very hard to see, I suppose a form of stealth training for the cadets.  Best is be slowed down before you enter the pattern and eyes outside.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[THill182]

I have made many trips into and over the Rockies in my Mooney O2, now O3 for a number of years. A couple of additional comments:

1. Density altitude is generally not a big deal in an O3; it has plenty of power to get off. Key is to remember the 50/70 rule of thumb (http://www.mountainflying.com/pages/mountain-flying/takeoff_dist.html) and consult your performance charts; in my case they have always been right-on.

2. Regarding leaning, the advice here matches my experience. Not an issue really.

3. Here are the biggest gotchas and scary/uncomfortable moments for me:

- Mountain waves: They are real! If you see more than 35kts to 40kts winds at your altitude (12k ft to 14k ft usually), be prepared that as you get close to the mountains from the East you suddenly will have a hard time maintaining altidue at 12,000 ft, or cannot stay at 14,000 ft; also happens as you fly through the mountains.

- Turbulence: That is the show stopper! Again, anything over 50kts winds at altitude and I will not go. 40 kts is questionable, and I ALWAYS carefully choose a route that does not put me on the downwind side of some higher ridges. Also consult VFR charts for notes about turbulence. Also, in the summer, turbulence gets worse as the day goes on often, particularly over the desert south (from ABQ going West); however, that is mostly very unpleasant and you can often outclimb it. But the mechanical turbulence from high winds with potential rotor clouds is something that you DO NOT want to experience.

- Higher is always better. You don't have many if any "plan-B" landing sites if the engine quits. It's a bit like flying over water: When you think about "what-if" enough, the engine starts to sound funny and you get (I got) scared.

I took a mountain flying course a while back, and it was a lot of fun and useful. But I don't think it is necessary. You SHOULD read however Sparky Imeson's advice here: http://www.mountainflying.com/Menu/mtn_fly_menu/mtn_fly_menu.html, or buy the book. I think everything you need to know is in there. The rest is local knowledge I feel, so for example, when flying in the real-high country there are certain box canyons, preferred routes through passes, and such. As a practical matter, follow the IFR routes and altitudes, and you are guaranteed not to hit anything. And it is still plenty beautiful anyway, even when 2k above the terrain (which makes me feel a lot safer anyway).

My 2 cts worth