prop stike Would you buy plane that had a prop strike

[pkofman]

Question

I live in Canada and finding planes here is really tough . The market is thin and finding good clean ndh planes without importing is really quite interesting.

I have always stayed away from any aircraft that had damage of any sort. My thinking  is that on resale damage of any sort makes  resale very difficult. I also question the repair and the safety of a fixed engine. Not to mention, it seems that one never really knows the full extent of the problems once damaged  I would also suggest that not all repairs are created equal ..  Further, from what ive seen prop stikes and gear ups create enormous devaluation of the aircraft

I have lots of concerns  but my question is to the community is ....

Would you buy a plane that had a prop strike...has a rebuilt engine ( MOH ) . In this case plane m20m , 10- smoh  ( 1500 tt). Evidently no other damage. Assume reputable shop did the rebuild?

Is this crazy or would you pass..?.what are the tips/tricks you would ask.look for....

Hopefully this is not too open ended of a question

Pete

 

 

 

 

[mpg]

56 minutes ago, pkofman said:

They actually reweighed the plane... 640lbs... almost a drone with 100 gallon tanks  .... something is amiss 

this thread makes no sense....   its only 40 seconds old, but the OP has quoted him self,   and he has made a quote from carasoullman

from 2 months ago,,  it is nuts...

buy a prop strike!   make sure the price right,  check the rebuild records, look for many happy hours since then!!!!

 

 

this post did not get the quotes posted right,,,   i am elstupidooo,,,,   but i tryed

[Bob_Belville]

Pete, you'll find many folks here who would not be concerned with a plane that's had a prop strike.

Don Maxwell (Mooney guru in Longview TX) estimates he's repaired 100 gear ups over the years. Christmas money. He told us at MooneyMax that if it was a gear up and not a partial deployment he is always(?) able to swap out the prop, get a ferry permit, and fly it to KGGG. Airframe damage is minimal - he has a modified auto lift to make it easy to work on the belly - the engine is torn down and the prop replaced. No big deal. 

A pretty high percentage of the vintage fleet has had some kind of damage history by now. A qualified mechanic will be able to advise whether repairs have been properly done.  

[PTK]

The prop strike event is not a big deal when you consider that the engine is at idle and the airplane is moving forward with the prop tips taking the blow bending backwards. The engine comes to a stop as this happens. Smoother and more gradually than if say the prop hit the pavement with the airplane not moving at WOT. That would be the other end of the spectrum and a lot worse.

As far as the perception of a GU airplane, it's a matter of trust. Do you trust the teardown was done properly. To overcome this consider how long it has flown post teardown.  

 

[DXB]

4 hours ago, pkofman said:

 

I have always stayed away from any aircraft that had damage of any sort. My thinking  is that on resale damage of any sort makes  resale very difficult. I also question the repair and the safety of a fixed engine. Not to mention, it seems that one never really knows the full extent of the problems once damaged  I would also suggest that not all repairs are created equal ..  Further, from what ive seen prop stikes and gear ups create enormous devaluation of the aircraft

Would you buy a plane that had a prop strike...has a rebuilt engine ( MOH ) . In this case plane m20m , 10- smoh  ( 1500 tt). Evidently no other damage. Assume reputable shop did the rebuild?

Right after major overhaul by a good shop?  Absolutely, and without any reservation. I'm not even sure the prop strike history alone in this context devalues the plane.

I'd be much more interested in learning how the prop strike happened and, based on this info, maybe finding someone qualified to assess the repair quality of any other air frame damage that occurred.  Seems this would be the real challenge given the paucity of Mooneys in Canada.  You'd probably want to take it to Clarence if you're in the western half of Canada- he's a regular poster here. In the typical gear up scenario, then there is some devaluation - but if it was repaired well, you are then getting a bargain.

Good luck Pete!

[pkofman]

3 hours ago, mpg said:

this thread makes no sense....   its only 40 seconds old, but the OP has quoted him self,   and he has made a quote from carasoullman

from 2 months ago,,  it is nuts...

buy a prop strike!   make sure the price right,  check the rebuild records, look for many happy hours since then!!!!

 

 

this post did not get the quotes posted right,,,   i am elstupidooo,,,,   but i tryed

Yup .. you are right... i thought i was posting in the other thread  i created earlier about UL., but so as to not confuse what i was hoping to accomplish here ( about damaged planes ) i deleted that post and re-quote.. The forum gods only know how i made that mistake.... thanks for point it out.... Pete

[carusoam]

Key thing to the prop strike issue...

There have been newish rules to define what a prop strike is, and updated procedures for how to handle engine tear down and inspection.

Not getting it done properly has lead to props departing planes.  A real challenge in the T/O phase.

People looking to buy a plane after it has been damaged will want to know about the work done and the procedures followed.

Some people will be confident that it was done correctly, others will be confident after a complete OH.   Then there are those who don't want DH.  Hence the reason that NDH commands a higher price.

The tips and tricks to purchasing a used machine is to have a Pre-purchase inspection performed prior to buying it.

There is nothing wrong with paying a pro to help you reduce your financial risk.

PPIs can be expensive.  Not getting one can be worse.

Follow-up questions: 

- who will perform your PPI?

- would you sell your plane because you had a prop strike?

Private pilot thoughts.  I am not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

[Guest]

5 hours ago, pkofman said:

Question

I live in Canada and finding planes here is really tough . The market is thin and finding good clean ndh planes without importing is really quite interesting.

I have always stayed away from any aircraft that had damage of any sort. My thinking  is that on resale damage of any sort makes  resale very difficult. I also question the repair and the safety of a fixed engine. Not to mention, it seems that one never really knows the full extent of the problems once damaged  I would also suggest that not all repairs are created equal ..  Further, from what ive seen prop stikes and gear ups create enormous devaluation of the aircraft

I have lots of concerns  but my question is to the community is ....

Would you buy a plane that had a prop strike...has a rebuilt engine ( MOH ) . In this case plane m20m , 10- smoh  ( 1500 tt). Evidently no other damage. Assume reputable shop did the rebuild?

Is this crazy or would you pass..?.what are the tips/tricks you would ask.look for....

Hopefully this is not too open ended of a question

Pete

 

 

 

 

Pete,

To me a prop strike has many variables, the definition in the current AD covers hitting something hard like the runway, or something soft like grass or mud, and does not differentiate between running or not running engines.

A prop strike may happen in conjunction with a gear up landing in which case the airframe will be damaged as well.  Mooney airframes generally hand the damage better than most.

Engine inspection per the AD and Lycoming SB 475 is the minimum required, most owners and insurance companies will pay for complete inspection per SB 533.

I may know of a Canadian M20M for sale.

Clarence

[Hank]

Would I buy a plane that had a prop strike?

The plane I did buy had a gear up landing four years prior. So yes, I did buy a plane that had a prop strike.

The key is the repairs. What was done, how was it done, who did it. These are in the logs. An experienced Mooney mechanic can tell a lot about the quality of the repairs by looking at the plane after reading the logs. This won't apply to inside the engine, but if the airframe was well done, it can be expected that the engine was, too.

[M20F]

Would and did, all a matter of the details as in all things. 

[helitim]

Would I purchase a plane with a prop strike history?  Yes, if properly repaired.

My question to you is, what is the big deal about importing a plane into Canada?  Yes, it may be a bit of paperwork but, the pool of potential planes is just a bit bigger down here to the south.  If I found a plane I wanted that was in Canada, I would have no problem importing to the US and re-registering, etc.

 

[Guest]

Importing is nothing more than spending a bunch more money.

Pay around 28% exchange on Canadian versus US dollar value.

Pay between 5 and 15% tax depending on what province you live in.

A 100 hour/ annual inspection, complete search and compliance with all AD's, transfer from those scratch pads you call log books to real log books.  

Overhaul the more than 10 year old propeller.

Reprogram mode S transponder and 406 ELT.  

Remove N number which is painted on, repaint effected area and apply Canadian registration, hopefully in vinyl.

Apply for Canadian C of R which can take weeks to months.

Call Transport Canada deligate to come and issue C of A.

I've been able to get some done in less than 10 days other have taken months.

Buying at home eliminates these steps.

Clarence

 

[pkofman]

1 hour ago, M20Doc said:

Importing is nothing more than spending a bunch more money.

Pay around 28% exchange on Canadian versus US dollar value.

Pay between 5 and 15% tax depending on what province you live in.

A 100 hour/ annual inspection, complete search and compliance with all AD's, transfer from those scratch pads you call log books to real log books.  

Overhaul the more than 10 year old propeller.

Reprogram mode S transponder and 406 ELT.  

Remove N number which is painted on, repaint effected area and apply Canadian registration, hopefully in vinyl.

Apply for Canadian C of R which can take weeks to months.

Call Transport Canada deligate to come and issue C of A.

I've been able to get some done in less than 10 days other have taken months.

Buying at home eliminates these steps.

Clarence

 

Ive done it 5 times in the past.. some shops are great , others not so much.. when the us /can $$ was better it did not hurt so much

and paying the hst at the border is a big $$$$, ( even though it is an input tax credit if done through my co. i just hate giving them that money on the spot. )

just easier to buy here if you can find the right machine... .!

Clarence send me a private email to pkofman at me.com re; the m20m  thx......

[bonal]

Damn Doc just when I was thinking a move north would not be such a bad idea. As someone that can only manage around 60 hrs a year I would prefer a 100 hour over the annual 

[Bravoman]

 As mentioned above, I cannot see were prop strike is a big deal, particularly after an engine overhaul and the replacement of the prop. To me, that is a whole other  animal then a gear up. Everybody has different schticts,  but I think from an objective standpoint a gear up is more likely to affect resale and market value. 

[Raptor05121]

Prop strikes/gear-ups in a Mooney comes with the name. Mine has had two of them (not be me). Mooney's are surprisingly easy to repair gear-ups. Cessnas, not so much.

[DonMuncy]

Whether talking about prop strikes or gear ups, the question is virtually never "if" it affects value, but how much. It will never happen, but if you could find two identical planes, one having had a PS or GU, and the other did not, no one would ever take the PS/GU over the other. But if there is a price differential; now you will have to make a decision. Personally, I don't think I would have any feeling for the difference in my flying enjoyment in a properly repaired PS/GU, but I figure eventually I would probably sell it, and the next guy would pay less. So I had better pay less.

I had a prop strike last year (while taxiing, hit a low spot and dug up some mud). The prop had minor damage on approximately 1/2 inch of the tips. Because of engine time and insurance considerations, I overhauled the engine and switched to a 3 blade MT prop. I like the plane A LOT MORE. It is smoother, quieter, uses zero oil, starts easier, jumps off the ground, and as far as I can tell, does not have a decrease in cruise speed. I (did) and would pay more for my plane now.

Incidentally, there is no mention in my plane's log books of a PS; only an OH and a new prop.

All that being said, I think buying a plane with a PS/GU is probably a good thing (assuming proper repair). You will get a discounted price because of it, your enjoyment will be the same, and the longer in the past the event took place, the less of a discount you will have to suffer on resale.

[Bob_Belville]

I had a prop strike while taxing on a paved ramp. (There's an old thread here somewhere.)

The required engine tear down discovered a worn cam and lifters. The engine had 692 hours on a FRM. 

Was the plane more valuable before the tear down and repair which included new cam, lifters, etc. or before the prop strike when that condition was unknown? 

[Jerry 5TJ]

I had a prop strike when I backed my van into the prop.  (Plane in hangar, engine not running) &  (not a happy day) 

i ended up with a newly overhauled prop and a Penn Yan "new limits" overhaul of the 1100 TT engine.  

The plane is probably MORE valuable due to the prop strike (and the not-small investment I made)

YMMV

 

 

[RLCarter]

Prop Strike, MDH, Corrosion etc..... If it was inspected and repaired correctly I could care less. Damage history and missing logs are bargaining tools during the purchase process. Chances are any of the above will will be reflected it the price, and when it comes time to sell it the repairs will pop up and negotiations will start again. You get the discount when buying and you MAY have to discount when you sell, so was any value lost? 

[JKSmith]

My bird N7122V had a gear collapse that lead to a prop strike at one point in its life I think in 84. It may screw up tomorrow but it has been properly maintained and repaired since the accident. 

My take on it is, complete and well documented repairs are worth there weight in gold. And if the plane has been flying a while since the prop strike or has been properly repaired then I wouldn't be scared of it. Older aircraft will more than likely have a history. 

[pkofman]

Thank you all for the great response to the question i posed as the OP.. Perhaps i've been much too conservative in my approach to this issue. Other than the comment by Carusoam.."

"Not getting it done properly has lead to props departing planes.  A real challenge in the T/O phase."

Can you actually imagine that scenario!

which by the way , scares the heck out of me . 

I take there is value if work is done correctly..

So I will continue my search for a Mooney with all of this in mind

[carusoam]

The good news is...

Some pretty heavy Damage CAN be fixed properly.

 

The challenge is...

As an owner: Getting it done, and documented properly.  Having to pay for it.

As a potential buyer: Having a pre-purchase inspection that reviews the work completed and it's documentation.

 

Level of comfort is a key issue to the price that an individual will pay...

Things that improve comfort level:

- The shop that does the work. There are preferred shops that are capable of rebuilding Mooneys from the frame up.

- The individual that does the work.  There are preferred individuals.

- The completeness of legible logs.

- Time elapsed since the repair has been completed.

- The plane flies straight and true and climbs like a NDH one.

- An expert can't tell that any damage ever occurred.  Proper parts, fasteners and procedures were all used.

- PPI completed by your favorite shop. (There is Nothing like reviewing the PPI on your plane with Don Maxwell)

 

Things that may make some buyers less comfortable...

- incomplete repair under some nicely replaced sheet metal.

- missing log books.

- work done by lesser known shop or not a Mooney specific shop.

- work done by less than reputable person/shop.

- finding undisclosed damage or repairs during a PPI.

- damage that isn't repaired.  There are limits in the Maintenance manual for some things to allow for some types of damage depending on location.

 

Buying a plane with NDH is much easier than one with.

- one less step to cover in a long list of things to be aware of.

- PPI is still important to determine the claim of NDH.

- a plane's health can change over time, and level of use, regardless of DH.

 

Buying machinery is a fun job.  It still is a lot of work. It only gets easier with the number of machines you buy and sell. The first one is an education.  The second one is additional experience.... 

 

Private Pilot thoughts.  Not a mechanic.  Let me know if I missed something.

Best regards,

-a-

 

 

[Cris]

It's probably important to differentiate between a prop strike and a gear up landing which requires a new prop. The former is a non issue since a tear down and a new prop is required in virtually all situations. A prop strike can occur if the A/C is on the ramp and not running like Anthony's (carusoam) or my own Screamin' eagle with just 47 hrs on the tach since new. In my case the engine was removed and overhauled at Mattituck with just 47 hrs since new as opposed to a tear down inspection.  In Anthony's case a factory reman was installed as opposed to a tear down inspection.  To me that enhances the value and like others have said it may not even be logged as a "prop strike". Now a gear up landing is entirely different and all of the caveats mentioned apply. I'm not really sure if a simple prop strike is really considered "damage history" guess I'll leave that to others. 

Edited July 15, 2016 by Cris

[Bravoman]

5 hours ago, Cris said:

It's probably important to differentiate between a prop strike and a gear up landing which requires a new prop. The former is a non issue since a tear down and a new prop is required in virtually all situations. A prop strike can occur if the A/C is on the ramp and not running like Anthony's (carusoam) or my own Screamin' eagle with just 47 hrs on the tach since new. In my case the engine was removed and overhauled at Mattituck with just 47 hrs since new as opposed to a tear down inspection.  In Anthony's case a factory reman was installed as opposed to a tear down inspection.  To me that enhances the value and like others have said it may not even be logged as a "prop strike". Now a gear up landing is entirely different and all of the caveats mentioned apply. I'm not really sure if a simple prop strike is really considered "damage history" guess I'll leave that to others. 

I'm pretty particular about damage histories and don't consider a prop strike damage history. With a new prop and with an overhaul or reman there is no chance of residual consequences to the plane. I guess theoretically I might have some concern if the engine was Iran but I don't think I would sweat that too much either, especially if it had been run a couple hundred hours with no problem post incident.