Lower Cies Float Pricing

[Bob - S50]

There have been some changes at Cies that make their floats more affordable.  Scott occasionally frequents this forum so if I post something wrong I hope he'll correct me.

Early J and older Mooneys have inboard floats that turn about 45 degrees as soon as they enter the tank in order to avoid a vertical tube in the wing.  That makes those floats more expensive to manufacture.

IF... we can find 10 or more owners who are willing to commit to buying floats for their Mooneys that require the 'bent' float, the price for those floats is now $455 each (down from about $650 and 100 owners needed).  The outboard floats are $395 each.  That makes a total set of floats about $1700.

The floats will work with:

Aerospace logic FL202? (resistance) - $652, FL202G (frequency) - $840, or FL252 (volts) - $651.

JPI 930

EI CGR-30P, CGR-30C, MVP-50P

Accuracy in smooth air should usually be within something less than a gallon.  At a 1% error, that would be 0.32 gallon/wing or .64 gallon for a standard J.  However, as you'll see below, he typically sees less than a 1% error.

Here is the reply I got from Scott:

1. We have a '78 M20J with the 'bent' inboard floats. You mentioned that your part supplier got new equipment that would make those 'bent' floats less expensive. What would the total cost now be for 4 floats for our Mooney? (2 inboard and 2 outboard)

He got the quote back to me - essentially the same - it is still $70 more in my cost for these changed parts and I wasn't marking them up. $455 for the inbds and $390 each for the outbds

But the number came down to 10 Mooney owners needed

2. You also indicated that your floats will once again work with the Aerospace Logic FL202 resistance based indicator which we already have. Could you please confirm that is correct?

It will now work better - I will still need to send a set off to Shane to insure

3. If we buy your floats and install them, in smooth air, what degree of accuracy/consistency can we expect? +/- 1 gallon? +/- 0.1 gallon? +/- 1%? Something else?

Typically we are very small fractions of a percent different from the actual - except in the transition point between inbd and outbd sender - there it has been up to a gallon

4. If we decide to buy them, how much lead time would you need? The logical time for us to do the install would be while the plane is in annual which is early September for us this year.

I'd need 5 weeks for the new Rotors and to have them teflon hard coat anodized.

Thanks,

Bob Patch

 

How many of you are interested at the new price?

[carusoam]

+1/2 Interested, but not currently in the plan.  Want a JPI 9X0 to go with that...

Sorry for the lack of commitment.

Best regards,

-a-

[Guest]

For that kind of money, I'd be more interested in a JPI FS450 fuel computer.

Clarence

[Bob_Belville]

28 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

For that kind of money, I'd be more interested in a JPI FS450 fuel computer.

Clarence

I have a 930. We sent the fuel level floats/sensor to Lock Haven when we installed it.

If I had some pretty masking tape I'd have to consider taping over those fuel gauges. (They're probably reasonably accurate in the 0-10 gallon range. I seldom fly there.

OTOH, the "used" function match the fuel truck within a gallon.  

[Bob - S50]

53 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

For that kind of money, I'd be more interested in a JPI FS450 fuel computer.

Clarence

We have a JPI 730 with fuel flow.  Works nicely.  However, it can only show how much fuel flowed past the transducer.  If we are venting fuel, if it is leaking out the fuel cap, or we have a fuel leak prior to the transducer it won't show up on the fuel computer.

Just something to consider.

Bob

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, Bob - S50 said:

We have a JPI 730 with fuel flow.  Works nicely.  However, it can only show how much fuel flowed past the transducer.  If we are venting fuel, if it is leaking out the fuel cap, or we have a fuel leak prior to the transducer it won't show up on the fuel computer.

Just something to consider.

Bob

Bob,

You are correct.  The gauges in my plane are reasonably accurate in the lower portion of their range, with one transmitter which does not exist anywhere.  

When the time comes, I'll be adding a fuel flow system.

Clarence

[sreid]

I have a 1967 M20F, so I have the two senders per side and 64 gallon tanks. Will these work on my plane?

I am interested if he will guarantee the accuracy he specified when used with my FL202 resistance fuel gauge display. What is the warranty?

Steve

[Bob - S50]

21 hours ago, sreid said:

I have a 1967 M20F, so I have the two senders per side and 64 gallon tanks. Will these work on my plane?

I am interested if he will guarantee the accuracy he specified when used with my FL202 resistance fuel gauge display. What is the warranty?

Steve

We also already have the FL202.  The quote I gave above indicated he was having the folks at Aerospace Logic check the FL202 to make sure it was going to work.  I'm flying a '78 J with the same 64 gallon capacity and two senders per side.  We are only interested if our existing FL202 will work.  Having to spend another $650 for a part plus extra money for the extra install hours makes it a bit more than we want to spend.

I've seen numerous reports on Beechtalk from people who have installed them and they are very happy.  Scott has also posted a few graphics showing the traces of fuel level and they look very good.  Some jaggedness which I assume is due to turbulence causing the floats to bounce as the fuel sloshes in the tank, but never a very large deviation and always returning to a consistent level.

We now have 2.5 of us that are interested.  Now we just need 7.5 more.

If my wife wouldn't kill me, I'd pay to have the parts for all 10 sets manufactured and have him reimburse me when he sold a set.  He says the specialty parts represent $3500 of inventory he would have to sit on until they sold.  Unfortunately, unlike Beech owners, Mooney owners don't seem to be very interested in the floats.

[Bob - S50]

On 6/5/2016 at 8:24 PM, carusoam said:

+1/2 Interested, but not currently in the plan.  Want a JPI 9X0 to go with that...

Sorry for the lack of commitment.

Best regards,

-a-

I believe your plane is new enough that it can use the already existing straight arm senders.  Check to make sure, but I believe you do not have the vertical tube running through your fuel tank.  If that is the case, you can buy four senders at $395 each.

[fuellevel]

The Mooney crowd is the hardest group to get through.  Obviously we have success with the Cirrus crowd as that is what is fitted as current production, the Beech group has been especially warm to the idea that fuel level is not only a required instrument, but also one that makes for better inflight decisions.  The Cessna Cardinal group is especially keen on the idea.   It may be that Beech owners are more sensitive - see the data below - as they seem to suffer a disproportionate number of fuel starvation.  

• All types of pilots suffer fuel starvation in single engine light aircraft.
• Fuel quantity accuracy is not well known in GA Aircraft (See below)
• Fuel related accidents don't happen to more sophisticated aircraft (with more experienced pilots)
• If you have a fuel starvation in a transport category aircraft, it had bad fuel indication (Gimli Glider ) 
• If you can't measure it - you can't manage it (yes fuel totalizers assist, however there are limitations - or the reason totalizers don't count as fuel gauges)

I am ready for the brickbats, but be aware 

• It only has to be accurate at "zero" is one of the biggest lies in aviation.  To whit Part 25.1337 the transport category regulation language for fuel indication is word for word identical to Part 23.1337 
  • Therefore by the above reasoning a 747 fuel quantity system need to be only accurate at "zero" - that wouldn't fly. 
  • Yes there are several FAA publications and a few NTSB reports that re-state that piece of information - they are frankly wrong. 
  • Really - Only accurate very near the point where the aircraft gets silent - the point where it is really important to be accurate and warn the pilot is 5 gallons north of empty

So we have Mooney senders and we are including them on our STC AML.  

Well I thought the Beech crowd would be hard - so here is our shot 

 

We will be at OSH in Bldg D right near the East entrance 

 

 

 

[Bob - S50]

Thanks Scott.

I'm still hoping we can find at least 10 Mooney drivers with the 'bent' inboard fuel senders that are interested.  That is, early "J" model and older airplanes.

Bob

[Marauder]

Bob -- I would love to have more accurate gauges but with a annual bill about to be paid, it just isn't something I can afford right now. I will be out at Oshkosh and will check out the booth.

[Bob - S50]

21 hours ago, Marauder said:

Bob -- I would love to have more accurate gauges but with a annual bill about to be paid, it just isn't something I can afford right now. I will be out at Oshkosh and will check out the booth.

Thanks for the interest.  I'm lucky in that with 3 partners, it only costs me one fourth as much as it will cost you.