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V35B crash on Long Island


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Oy - this is a real life story with an unhappy and tragic ending.  I feel for the families.

Yes, you can fly and all of us with IR have flown partial panel.  However, get even a non certified electric AI backup for these emergency conditions.  If you have an AHRS type GPS receiver like a Stratus II, a bad elf, or any number of devices for less than $1000 you can have a backup somewhere in your cockpit.  A real dedicates backup may be closer to $2000 but worh it - especially if you spend a lot of time in IMC or quasi IMC.  I've been talking about getting an old iPhone setup as a backup AHRS - it's time to get it done!  I have a standby VAC, but these real life tragedies make you think twice.  The portable Dynon D1 unit is a great standalone piece to mount somewhere.  I may do this at some point if I'm not thrilled with the iPhone AHRS app and mount.  The D1 is $1095 right now for an stand alone GPS AHRS backup AI type panel.

 

-Seth

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11 minutes ago, Seth said:

Oy - this is a real life story with an unhappy and tragic ending.  I feel for the families.

Yes, you can fly and all of us with IR have flown partial panel.  However, get even a non certified electric AI backup for these emergency conditions.  If you have an AHRS type GPS receiver like a Stratus II, a bad elf, or any number of devices for less than $1000 you can have a backup somewhere in your cockpit.  A real dedicates backup may be closer to $2000 but worh it - especially if you spend a lot of time in IMC or quasi IMC.  I've been talking about getting an old iPhone setup as a backup AHRS - it's time to get it done!  I have a standby VAC, but these real life tragedies make you think twice.  The portable Dynon D1 unit is a great standalone piece to mount somewhere.  I may do this at some point if I'm not thrilled with the iPhone AHRS app and mount.  The D1 is $1095 right now for an stand alone GPS AHRS backup AI type panel.

 

-Seth

Has anyone tried flying in IMC on an iPad with a portable AHRS to see how accurate it is? I don't have an AHRS version of the GDL-39 but am curious how well they would work in an emergency.

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I have a Stratus 2 and an iPad.  I wouldn't trust it for AI in IMC.  The Stratus can't move at all or the AI needs to be recalibrated.  I normally put mine on the window and it falls off often, it would come down in turbulence, and there you would be.  Some kind of RAM or glareshield mount that is solidly attached would be better.  I would rely on the TC, DG, Alt. and VSI before the Stratus.  

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Just now, jlunseth said:

I have a Stratus 2 and an iPad.  I wouldn't trust it for AI in IMC.  The Stratus can't move at all or the AI needs to be recalibrated.  I normally put mine on the window and it falls off often, it would come down in turbulence, and there you would be.  Some kind of RAM or glareshield mount that is solidly attached would be better.  I would rely on the TC, DG, Alt. and VSI before the Stratus.  

Yes - mine is suction cupped to the panel, but I've been thinking about mounting the bracket more securely than that - if its securely fixed during auto calibration at powerup and the cradle doesnt move, it should be pretty reliable, no?  In that case, wouldn't the attitude info be far better to have than the standard partial panel during vac failure?

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Anthony it appears he was instrument rated, this chilling adventure shows the need as you stated to practice partial panel. We do our 6-6-6 tasks to stay current in accordance to the regs but how often do we actually practice partial panel. As Clarence mentioned his buddy was sharp. I remember a few decades ago when I took my check ride I was at my sharpest like Clarence's friend, listening to his recording and looking at flight aware regarding  the flight certainly will be on my mind, most likely I will do some partial panel work in the next couple of weeks.

The best things, if it's possible to says is when we review, compare and contrast these tragedys it's motivates some of us to analyze what occurred using this info to better ourselves. Many of us may have handled the situation differently but using it as a learning tool may save one of us. 

I lost my vacuum twice once at night in IFR conditions, I to declared an emergency for priority handling, but landed at the first airport with an ILS. Fortunately it was not long after my check ride.

May God bless his sole.

 

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2 hours ago, bonal said:

To DXB as another VFR guy even with back up I know I would have a very hard time controlling it once I was in the IMC.  And assuming my AP was NG and knowing my plane fly's hands free I would request updated headings from ATC keep my control inputs to a minimum not let my brain trick me into thinking something that's not and keep a sharp eye on the Garmin to confirm what's going on.

 

2 hours ago, Marauder said:

And even experienced instrument flyers will get the leans @ times.

This is another one of those incidents, when listening to the audio, really tugs at the heart strings. From listening to the audio it sounds as though he was calm and making the best decisions for his circumstance. The controller agreed that his destination had the best ceiling and weather. The question, I think, will be what other instruments was he losing besides his AI when he declared this to the controller. When I first got my instrument rating I was very comfortable flying IMC. I had one experience that I'll never forget. It was night, I had just taken off and was in the soup at 600'. I had the strong impression that even though I had a nose up attitude and climbing, the plane was sinking....and it was a very strong feeling. Checking my airspeed, VSI, AI, RPM's and manifold pressure it took all I had to trust the instruments and not pull back on the yoke. Longest five minutes of my IMC experience and never so happy to see stars. Prayers for this gentleman and his family.

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I haven't listened to the recording and don't think I will.

I had to replace my previous backup AI which is where the turn coordinator would be. I replaced a mechanical AI with an RCA 2600-3 digital unit. These things make loss of a primary AI (vacuum or electric) <<almost>> a non-issue. I did an IPC shortly after replacing it and the instructor first failed the autopilot, then the King AI and finally the 530. She did this just as I was about to intercept the localizer for an ILS (the bum noticed I didn't set up KX-155 and head for the ILS as backup but that's a different issue :huh:). Flying that ILS with the RCA and the King loc/gs head was as easy as it gets.

If you fly IFR in actual there is no excuse for not having these kinds of backup equipment. Forego speed mods, paint, interior, aesthetics, etc. until you have the redundancy in your instrumentation to keep you safe.

Practice? Well that deserves an thread unto itself (but it remains the only way to get to Carnegie Hall :D)

 

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8 hours ago, jlunseth said:

If its the TC, then you need to watch for a TC failure.  The flag on the TC is pretty smalll.  Mine gave up the ghost earlier this year and I had it replaced.  I noticed it during a taxi and IFR check ( always steer left and right on the taxiway to check instruments).  I am pretty sure it had not been working well before that, I just had not noticed it.  On the bench it turned out it was sticking, not indicating, and then spontaneously working again.  Nothing in the panel is invulnerable.

This is why having an STEC autopilot is such a safe investment.  If the TC fails, or the electrical system, you fly the airplane by hand to VFR conditions using the vacuum AI and DG and whatever battery you have to declare an emergency on your radio.

If you lose vacuum, you use the STEC to keep the wings level without having to be 100% proficient at partial panel hand flying.  BK autopilots, on the other hand, need both: electric for the autopilot AND vacuum for the AI to keep the wings level.

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11 minutes ago, Seth said: Oy - this is a real life story with an unhappy and tragic ending.  I feel for the families.

Yes, you can fly and all of us with IR have flown partial panel.  However, get even a non certified electric AI backup for these emergency conditions.  If you have an AHRS type GPS receiver like a Stratus II, a bad elf, or any number of devices for less than $1000 you can have a backup somewhere in your cockpit.  A real dedicates backup may be closer to $2000 but worh it - especially if you spend a lot of time in IMC or quasi IMC.  I've been talking about getting an old iPhone setup as a backup AHRS - it's time to get it done!  I have a standby VAC, but these real life tragedies make you think twice.  The portable Dynon D1 unit is a great standalone piece to mount somewhere.  I may do this at some point if I'm not thrilled with the iPhone AHRS app and mount.  The D1 is $1095 right now for an stand alone GPS AHRS backup AI type panel.

 

-Seth

Has anyone tried flying in IMC on an iPad with a portable AHRS to see how accurate it is? I don't have an AHRS version of the GDL-39 but am curious how well they would work in an emergency.

Not very well, you're looking at iPad then up to other instruments, then back, it's tough to scan, and AI with it's wings representation is easier to interpret then the glass one (2 half moon dials).

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8 hours ago, Marauder said:

Has anyone tried flying in IMC on an iPad with a portable AHRS to see how accurate it is? I don't have an AHRS version of the GDL-39 but am curious how well they would work in an emergency.

I have.  Worked great.  Simulated IMC. 

Check pilot failed everything so I just looked at the iPad on yoke with ForeFlight in split screen mode.  Knew the "airspeed indicator" is really ground speed so kept extra speed.   Flew an LNAV approach, added some allowance for GPS altimeter.  (Then the sob made me crank the gear down by hand, and failed beta after touchdown.)

As others have noted, the portable ARHS must be lashed down securely.  

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Consider adding turbulence to this question...

partial panel while the remaining instruments are working normally is a cognitive challenge.  At lower levels, the turbulence can be quite choppy.  

Does your TC bounce around in the chop?  Are you able to keep the clean side up while following a bouncing TC?

I was pretty dissapointed after I saw this during IR training.  The partial panel exercise with the TC was good, until I experienced the turbulence.  The book didn't seem to cover what the real life training showed...

Shaking TC needles left me looking for a more usable plan B. An Electric vacuum system is pretty good.  Electric AI with it's own battery would make a great plan C. 

On the topic of portables...  One caveat, it has to be up and running, there might not be time to get it out, turn it on, pair the device and have it fall off the window or shelf...

Descending at thousands of feet per minute doesn't leave enough time for problem solving...

About me: I like choppy turbulence, practicing stalls, and IMC (not all at the same time, of course). I abhor flimsy plan Bs.

My definition of a flimsy plan B: mechanical vacuum pumps are expected to fail. The TC is the goto instrument. The TC may give more hard to follow information than real keep the wings level information in turbulence.

If the TC is your plan B for a common vacuum failure, make sure you can make it work In turbulence.

PP logic.  I am not a mechanic or CFI.

Best regards,

-a-

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Just now, carusoam said:

Consider adding turbulence to this question...

partial panel while the remaining instruments are working normally is a cognitive challenge.  At lower levels, the turbulence can be quite choppy.  

Does your TC bounce around in the chop?  Are you able to keep the clean side up while following a bouncing TC?

I was pretty dissapointed after I saw this during IR training.  The partial panel exercise with the TC was good, until I experienced the turbulence.  The book didn't seem to cover what the real life training showed...

Shaking TC needles left me looking for a more usable plan B. An Electric vacuum system is pretty good.  Electric AI with it's own battery would make a great plan C. 

On the topic of portables...  One caveat, it has to be up and running, there might not be time to get it out, turn it on, pair the device and have it fall off the window or shelf...

Descending at thousands of feet per minute doesn't leave enough time for problem solving...

About me: I like choppy turbulence, practicing stalls, and IMC (not all at the same time, of course). I abhor flimsy plan Bs.

My definition of a flimsy plan B: mechanical vacuum pumps are expected to fail. The TC is the goto instrument. The TC may give more hard to follow information than real keep the wings level information in turbulence.

If the TC is your plan B for a common vacuum failure, make sure you can make it work In turbulence.

PP logic.  I am not a mechanic or CFI.

Best regards,

-a-

Unfortunately we will never know the actual flight conditions and more importantly how well prepared the pilot was to manage it. I think back to all those years of flying with nothing more than an AI, partial panel training and a Precise Flight manifold driven backup vacuum system. I thought that was "prepared".

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When I first heard this, I thought well I'll tun on my standby vacuum, turn on the AI function on my iPad and declare an Emergency. After listening to this again, the really chilling part was when he went into IMC and told the controller that he had lost more of his panel. This is probably not likely. He probably wasn't believing what they were saying. I haven't done much partial panel since I got my IR 10 years ago. Can't remember when I did an approach on partial panel. That is going to change. I was remembering what my instructor would tell me. In this situation use only a light touch on the yoke. The plane has a lot of longitudinal stability, and just 'bump' the yoke to keep the wings level. 

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Response to Marauder...

We were all told that we were prepared. I wanted to believe I was prepared.

The limitations on the precise flight device are interesting.  You need to be at lower altitudes to generate the MP difference that is required to operate the gyros.

To get down to the altitude the system needs before the gyros wind down, Precise flight has these nifty speed brakes to go with that....

I have both the precise flight electric vac pump system and their speed brakes. The mid 90’s version of Plan B:

Electronic instruments have come a long way.

Best regards,

-a-

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It was a bad day. Did he consider taking advantage of his 2.5 hours of fuel to fly towards some clearing? NW towads upstate NY maybe? We'll never know unfortunately. The images at least suggest that was a viable option. He lost it around 1700Z. Here are the satellite surface images around the time of the crash...

image.jpgimage.jpgimage.jpgimage.jpg

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2 hours ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

I have.  Worked great.  Simulated IMC. 

Check pilot failed everything so I just looked at the iPad on yoke with ForeFlight in split screen mode.  Knew the "airspeed indicator" is really ground speed so kept extra speed.   Flew an LNAV approach, added some allowance for GPS altimeter.  (Then the sob made me crank the gear down by hand, and failed beta after touchdown.)

As others have noted, the portable ARHS must be lashed down securely.  

Darn! I knew there was something different about your Ovation but I just couldn't put my finger on it.

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13 hours ago, M20Doc said:

Partial panel training and practice is a must.  Recently I flew with a buddy before his multi ride.  With foggles on he flew 20 mile to the practice airport, did 2 laps in the hold at the NDB, transition the the GPS approach 05, went missed, set up for GPS 23, missed, return 20 miles for the GPS approach 32 at home, ten miles back I failed his right engine, he had to make the turn into the left engine, at minimums he lifted the foggles and landed.  

He was almost an hour partial panel with 3 approaches, it can be done.

Clarence

The CFI that put me through my instrument training was anal when it came to partial panel. As sure as the sun rises in the east, he would always take out the rubber cover and place it over the AI for the 25 minute trip back from the practice area. Since that's the way I learned, it seems to be a natural skill for me and whenever I go out to practice, at least half the time is without the AI. I fully realize that this was always under controlled circumstances so if the real thing happens it will be interesting to see how much all of that training paid off.

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4 minutes ago, Rookie said:

I may have missed something but why is NTSB saying the aircraft may have broken up in flight?

The typical reason would be that the PIC lost control, the aircraft went into a graveyard spiral or dive and exceeded Vne by enough to cause flutter and then breakup.   The NTSB would say the aircraft broke up in the air because they have seen the debris pattern.

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4 minutes ago, Rookie said: I may have missed something but why is NTSB saying the aircraft may have broken up in flight?

The typical reason would be that the PIC lost control, the aircraft went into a graveyard spiral or dive and exceeded Vne by enough to cause flutter and then breakup.   The NTSB would say the aircraft broke up in the air because they have seen the debris pattern.

In addition, according to the news report, the passengers were not with the main wreckage.

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May be a good idea, like training, to keep a couple of covers to get rid of *all* visual reference to vacuum driven instruments in the event of a failure.  Even worse than lack of information is contrary and incorrect information compared to what you are supposed to reference.  It's really hard not to look at an AI when it is failing and this can lead to spatial disorientation very easily.  Combine with the stress of an emergency and there's nothing but bad news.   

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Meaning to try out this app on my Android phone ... (called Aircraft cockpit and costs $5). The free version runs for 5 minutes.

It uses barometric, GPS and gyro inputs to run the display. Seems to work fine on the ground. The only real input missing is airspeed, but ground speed should suffice if you know your power settings for different regimes of flight. The good thing is if my phone is charged, I don't have to worry about any electrical issues on the plane either. And yes, I can change the scale on the speed indicator (240knots max)

large.android_6_pack.png.693bef7a5db4922

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