A Landing Slump?

[Jeff_S]

I think I'm in a landing slump! Sorry to dump this perhaps inane post on an unsuspecting public, but I need to just talk it out. For the last few weeks my landings have been abysmal, bordering on horrific! It doesn't help that the spring winds have been swirling out of the east, which is a bit unusual for Atlanta. And for some reason, it's just worked out that they always favored the runway where they come from the right. But man, I've landed my bird in cross-winds (from the left, mind you) that were 25G35 (gotta love Kansas) and consider my skills at least passable in that area. During my BFR (sorry, FR) in January we had gusty cross-winds and Mike Elliot passed me, said he'd let his wife fly with me, so that's something.

But a quick rundown of my last few landings looks like this:

1) Rwy 5, winds 10-15 from 100°, skid-skid-side loading swerve and whew, finally slowed down
2) Rwy 3L, same winds, stable approach on the numbers until the touchdown and then WHAM! gust pushes me left, skid-skid side loading but got it under control
3) Rwy 3L again (okay, it's obvious, PDK) this time with two Angel Flight passengers, winds 10-15 from 100° to 130° (PDK hates using the 21s unless they have to) and it's looking pretty good all the way into the flare and then THE BOTTOM DROPS OUT because of wind shear and we come in pretty hard, little bounce, add power, settle it back down, and the rest of the taxi in I'm just praying "God I hope no prop strike, God I hope no prop strike...".  (Prayers answered this time, but I think I scared the bejeezus out of my passengers.)
4) Rwy 5, winds 3-5 from 60°, nice stable approach and no drifting but damn if I didn't do a perfect 3-point landing! Where's my flare?
5) Rwy 3R, winds variable at 4 with slight gusts, okay, finally, perfect conditions, 75 indicated over the numbers, looking good, in the flare, back pressure back pressure waiting for the mains to settle...come on mains, why won't you settle, any time now, okay there she goes, nice touchdown, rolling out and WTF WHY IS MY NOSE SWERVING TO THE LEFT? Got it under control, but that was unnecessarily dramatic.

For those of you who play or understand golf, it's like I have the landing yips. Just like those guys whose right-hand takes on a mind of its own when attempting a 3-foot putt, my feet and brain just don't seem connected right now on the final phase of landing. It's enough to drive a man to the bottle. (Well, okay, pilots go there anyway, but you know what I mean.) Does Dr. Phil know anything about flying?!

[jlunseth]

You know, I think we all go through the landing yips.  One day it is working, then for awhile not so much.  I cure myself by going out in moderate crosswinds and doing maybe ten in a row someplace.  Sooner or later the sight picture starts working again.  But add to that, that it is spring.  Winds are just going to be variable in our part of the country.  If I were to guess, I think you probably have yourself a little spooked about the three points, and so probably are lifting the nose too much, which causes the aircraft to fall fairly strongly right above the runway, and that in turn will cause a bounce.  There is a fine line between leaving the nose a little low so you don't do that, and holding it off so you land on the mains.

In strong enough crosswinds, like your 25G35, you are going to get some skid.  When the plane slows there is a point where it is still a little light on its feet, so you do not have much traction on the wheels, but too slow to have much rudder authority, so a strong crosswind may skid you a little no matter how much airleron you put into the wind.

[PMcClure]

Been there, done that Jeff! Sounds like you are overthinking it. When I was struggling with landings, a CFI told me not to sweat it. The gear can take a lot more abuse that we like to think and sometimes winds just don't cooperate. And a quartering tail wind is always a fun experience in the Ovation. It feels like a giant hand has ahold of my tail feathers and pushes me around. I suggest you relax, get in some solo practice on a nice day and get some friends or CFR to ride a long if you still have trouble. Come to PLR and we can have some fun. If landing was easy, everyone would do it!!

[Glenn]

My suggestion is to go up high, and practice slow-flight.  Put the plane in landing configuration and do turns as well as perfectly straight and level flight all with the stall horn sounding. That muscle memory will help you in the flair.

Disclaimer:  I am not a CFI, nor have I recently stayed in a Holiday Inn Express, but I have encountered this problem more than once and slow-flight has worked for me.

[mike_elliott]

36 minutes ago, Jeff_S said:

I think I'm in a landing slump! Sorry to dump this perhaps inane post on an unsuspecting public, but I need to just talk it out. For the last few weeks my landings have been abysmal, bordering on horrific! It doesn't help that the spring winds have been swirling out of the east, which is a bit unusual for Atlanta. And for some reason, it's just worked out that they always favored the runway where they come from the right. But man, I've landed my bird in cross-winds (from the left, mind you) that were 25G35 (gotta love Kansas) and consider my skills at least passable in that area. During my BFR (sorry, FR) in January we had gusty cross-winds and Mike Elliot passed me, said he'd let his wife fly with me, so that's something.

But a quick rundown of my last few landings looks like this:

1) Rwy 5, winds 10-15 from 100°, skid-skid-side loading swerve and whew, finally slowed down
2) Rwy 3L, same winds, stable approach on the numbers until the touchdown and then WHAM! gust pushes me left, skid-skid side loading but got it under control
3) Rwy 3L again (okay, it's obvious, PDK) this time with two Angel Flight passengers, winds 10-15 from 100° to 130° (PDK hates using the 21s unless they have to) and it's looking pretty good all the way into the flare and then THE BOTTOM DROPS OUT because of wind shear and we come in pretty hard, little bounce, add power, settle it back down, and the rest of the taxi in I'm just praying "God I hope no prop strike, God I hope no prop strike...".  (Prayers answered this time, but I think I scared the bejeezus out of my passengers.)
4) Rwy 5, winds 3-5 from 60°, nice stable approach and no drifting but damn if I didn't do a perfect 3-point landing! Where's my flare?
5) Rwy 3R, winds variable at 4 with slight gusts, okay, finally, perfect conditions, 75 indicated over the numbers, looking good, in the flare, back pressure back pressure waiting for the mains to settle...come on mains, why won't you settle, any time now, okay there she goes, nice touchdown, rolling out and WTF WHY IS MY NOSE SWERVING TO THE LEFT? Got it under control, but that was unnecessarily dramatic.

For those of you who play or understand golf, it's like I have the landing yips. Just like those guys whose right-ha akes on a mind of its own when attempting a 3-foot putt, my feet and brain just don't seem connected right now on the final phase of landing. It's enough to drive a man to the bottle. (Well, okay, pilots go there anyway, but you know what I mean.) Does Dr. Phil know anything about flying?!

Jeff, are you maintaining a 3 deg approach slope still, or are you coming in steeper? Fly that sucker an inch off the runway until she wont fly anymore, maintain runway alignment with rudder, correct drift with aileron. Bottom dropping out might be because you were a tad slow for your weight and wind condition with pax, hard to say without being in one of the seats. Give me a ring the next time your down this way, we can go find some stinky wind conditions to work on the landings. They were great just a few months ago and will be again soon.

 

[Marauder]

The only thing I can add to the conversation is for you to note your control positions after you touch down. Scenario 5 could be you have your left rudder or brake engaged a bit. Also don't disregard a hanging brake. I have had that happen.

As for scenario 1 & 2, a lot of times pilots neutralize all controls after landing. In any wind, you may still need to compensate for the wind. My first instructor used to say "fly it until it is tied down".

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Andy95W]

It happens to everybody, and it seems to happen most to people who fly a lot.  Happens to me probably 1 or 2 times a year, and I've seen it with the people I'm flying with also.  Sometimes I'll even tell the person I'm flying with that I'm going through a landing slump so don't expect anything pretty.

The problem is the more you think about it and try to get better, the worse your landings get.  Usually for me I'll get to the point where I say "ah, screw it, I don't care as long as it doesn't hurt the airplane".  Then, like magic, my landings go back to normal (which for me equates to average). 

[steingar]

Yeah  been happening to me too.  For about the last 16 years.

[Oscar Avalle]

Happens to all of us! Don't worry... Just go up there and do several landings and everything comes back into play. No magic lotion available... only repetition.

[Seth]

Happens to all of us from time to time however . . .

The fact that you mentioned directional control on the ground makes me think that Maurader may be right about engaging the brakes OR your steering horn may be slightly damaged or misaligned.  Great article by DMAX.  Can happen when towed improperly, or for all I know the side loads may have messed something up (though I doubt it).

I always love it when your landings are so smooth that you realize you are on the ground but didn't know when the mains touched.  When a passenger or fellow pilot especially is on board - man it's a great feeling.  You'll get back there soon.

Funny, I have made my smoothest landings consistently in crosswinds as I am working harder - it should teach me not to be as passive in light or no wind conditions and not accept an acceptable landing during an "easy" approach.

You made it down safe each time, the plane is not damaged, but it's not up to your standards.  You'll skills will return.

-Seth

[Danb]

Mentioning DMAX last year I was having a similar problem and could not get it from dumping in the last foot or so, I took it to annual and Don said have you had problems landing and I said yep I seem to have forgotten how to fly this thing, Don  said your elevator was hanging up and he had to loosen the block and grease it behind the yoke,he told me he had problems landing it until he found the culprit he advised me to be cautious because its handling the was it should be, he was correct because in the first couple I was yanking back to hard on the yoke. Since I forgot what the block is called I would check to see if your yoke is moving smoothly. Mine was so bad I would pull the yoke back a couple inches and it would hang up for 10-15 seconds or so before the weight released it.

[mike_elliott]

23 minutes ago, Danb said:

Mentioning DMAX last year I was having a similar problem and could not get it from dumping in the last foot or so, I took it to annual and Don said have you had problems landing and I said yep I seem to have forgotten how to fly this thing, Don  said your elevator was hanging up and he had to loosen the block and grease it behind the yoke,he told me he had problems landing it until he found the culprit he advised me to be cautious because its handling the was it should be, he was correct because in the first couple I was yanking back to hard on the yoke. Since I forgot what the block is called I would check to see if your yoke is moving smoothly. Mine was so bad I would pull the yoke back a couple inches and it would hang up for 10-15 seconds or so before the weight released it.

That's one of the reasons to take your plane to Dmax. He will fly it, and can squawk things like this and make them right. Others lack this touch. Dmax has more hours in ground effect than I have in my logbook I believe  

Last time I flew with him I suggested he buy Don Kaye's video after his 9 degree approach slope

 

[carqwik]

Landing yips...BTDT and likely to experience it again.  One thing is that you're flying a long body which is (just my opinion here) seems to be more speed sensitive than the mid-body Mooneys and therefore requires some greater degree of speed precision for a given landing weight and wind conditions.  For starters, use take-off flaps when landing in gusty wind conditions and boost your approach speed accordingly. (80 kts plus half the gust factor).  If you have any amount of tailwind, add all of it to your approach speed (and watch how much extra runway you will use!).

Your yips will go away...just fly the numbers and you'll be find.  And also...this got me a few times...I didn't have the throttle all the way out...wow...very hard to get it to land with just a smidge of throttle left in!

[Danb]

MIKE.....so true, also quite a gentleman, I will see him in a couple months

 

[Mooneymite]

Ha!  Interesting you make the golf comparison.  As you know, the easterly wind in ATL is usually associated with that weather demon "the wedge".  The wedge brings with it all sorts of nasty weather phenomenon and generally messes up landings.

Wait until the west wind returns and your landings will be perfect again.  West is best! 

(Did you ever notice all the CAT III approaches at KATL are for east winds?)

 

[Danb]

40 minutes ago, Mooneymite said:

Ha!  Interesting you make the golf comparison.  As you know, the easterly wind in ATL is usually associated with that weather demon "the wedge".  The wedge brings with it all sorts of nasty weather phenomenon and generally messes up landings.

Wait until the west wind returns and your landings will be perfect again.  West is best! 

(Did you ever notice all the CAT III approaches at KATL are for east winds?)

 

Just make sure you don't get a case of the SHANKS!!

[triple8s]

Sure makes me feel better reading this thread. I have to fly a short little trip tomorrow and I am dreading it in a way because for the last 6 months or so my landings have been really good but I haven't flown in a week so, I am hopeful I haven't lost the touch. I always thought it was just my lack of skill/experience or something because I would go through those good/bad seasons. Really weird sometimes it's so easy to land in really gnarly crosswinds and then other times no matter how hard I try it is such a relief to just get it on the ground without damage. It has to be us humans, doesn't it? I mean surely it isn't the plane just showing us who's   really the boss.

[WardHolbrook]

I figure that over the past 50 years I've made close to 15,000 landings and I think that I've finally discovered the secret to making good landings, every time, in any airplane. In the beginning, I figured that it had to do with maintaining a stabilized approach and proper airspeed control; but obviously, that wasn't it. Then I worked up a theory that added planetary alignment and moon phases to the equation and I was getting closer. I finally put it all together when i figured out how to hold my mouth! You have to hold your mouth just right and the planets have to be in proper alignment and the moon has to be in the proper phase, all of that in addition to flying a nice smooth stabilized approach and maintaining the proper airspeed. If you get a greaser other than when you're doing all of that, you're just lucky.

Seriously, when it comes to landings, it is all about a stabilized approach and proper airspeed control. As a long-time CFI, I note that it's not uncommon for little things to creep in to our personal techniques and SOPs over time - things that we might not even realize that we're doing. Frequently, it's flying too fast. 1.2Vso to 1.3Vso is plenty fast as you're crossing the proverbial fence. A lot of us habitually approach on the fast side then we as a knot or two for the wife and kids and a knot or two for this and another couple of knots for that. I don't care what you're flying - that's sloppy airspeed control and will screw up your landings in just about any airplane. The other thing I see quite a bit of is pilots using poor techniques to compensate for bad techniques. I've seen pilots who fly their approach too fast resort to things like only using partial flaps and/or bleeding off the flaps in the flare. The best recommendation I can give you is to find a Mooney savvy CFI and go spend an hour with him. It's something that we all really ought to do more often. The obligatory BFR is really too long to go between recurrent training sessions.

 

Edited April 26, 2016 by WardHolbrook

[Bravoman]

6 hours ago, Mooneymite said:

Ha!  Interesting you make the golf comparison.  As you know, the easterly wind in ATL is usually associated with that weather demon "the wedge".  The wedge brings with it all sorts of nasty weather phenomenon and generally messes up landings.

Wait until the west wind returns and your landings will be perfect again.  West is best! 

(Did you ever notice all the CAT III approaches at KATL are for east winds?)

 

 Except at KRYY when the winds are out of the Northwest. If that is the case, always approach high land beyond the quarry or you can get some nasty vortices and shear. 

[gsengle]

My thoughts on landing for what it's worth...

1) arrive over the end of the runway descending around 500fpm maybe 10kts tops left to bleed off... (75 over the fence for me)

2) as you get close to the runway, level off, remove remaining power, add rudder and aileron as needed for crosswind to track centerline and slowly very slowly not overcontrolling bring the plane into an attitude such that the airplane when it touches down will have the nose wheel off the ground. Now hold it there. Don't over control just keep it there as long as it takes to settle to the runway. (Go around if insufficient runway left of course...)

3) keep your head out of the cockpit as soon as you're over the runway - instruments won't help you now. Look way down the runway and use your peripheral vision to tell you the whole picture...

4) now with the mains down, let the nose wheel settle and then flaps up and pull back for aerodynamic braking if necessary... Don't use more brakes than you need, we don't have abs.

5) in the ovation in any case the trim is very useful in the round out, to get the airplane trimmed for that flare position.

The big thing is that you can over flare by increasing the pitch attitude too far, don't be afraid when you get to the just enough nose up attitude to HOLD IT THERE... You don't wanna balloon up. Let the airplane land, your job is to be in the right place when you've bled enough energy.

Finally, if you bounce on the nose wheel you get one chance to fix it. If you bounce a second time go around immediately, the third bounce may well be a prop strike / nose gear collapse...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jeff_S]

Ha! Okay, let me get this straight...don't be too high or too low, don't come in too fast or too slow, don't flare too much or too little, keep your feet active on the rudder pedals but not too active, keep your mouth open just the right amount (to emit the obscenities, no doubt), use full flaps unless you should be using partial flaps due to conditions...dang, this stuff really IS rocket surgery!

But seriously, thanks for all the thoughts. As pilots are wont to do, I've analyzed your notes in context of my last landing and it suddenly dawned on me what caused that unexpected swerve. I was definitely on the rudder pedals to manage the cross-wind, and I have pretty darn large feet. Put those two together, and I most assuredly let my left foot creep up too high on the pedal and touched the brake instead...d'oh! Note to self: find smaller shoes.

Thanks!

[mike_elliott]

13 hours ago, Bravoman said:

 Except at KRYY when the winds are out of the Northwest. If that is the case, always approach high land beyond the quarry or you can get some nasty vortices and shear. 

Yep, been there, done that!

[Brian Scranton]

The one piece of advice that made all the difference for me when I had a little landing slump (doing EXACTLY what you described above) was to make sure I was looking WAY WAY WAY down the runway after I round out. Hope this helps! 

[Marauder]

Ha! Okay, let me get this straight...don't be too high or too low, don't come in too fast or too slow, don't flare too much or too little, keep your feet active on the rudder pedals but not too active, keep your mouth open just the right amount (to emit the obscenities, no doubt), use full flaps unless you should be using partial flaps due to conditions...dang, this stuff really IS rocket surgery!

But seriously, thanks for all the thoughts. As pilots are wont to do, I've analyzed your notes in context of my last landing and it suddenly dawned on me what caused that unexpected swerve. I was definitely on the rudder pedals to manage the cross-wind, and I have pretty darn large feet. Put those two together, and I most assuredly let my left foot creep up too high on the pedal and touched the brake instead...d'oh! Note to self: find smaller shoes.

Thanks!

And all of this advice is certainly applicable to ED. ♥️

[Browncbr1]

I confess, I too haven't had many greasers lately...   I wonder if the quick change in temperatures have anything to do with it?  Do you think the thicker cold air would feel different for the same IAS?  

I figured I was just rusty, but I reminded myself recently to be more cognizant of the changing conditions that come so quickly this time of year.  Has anyone experienced easier landing in winter vs summer or is it just another golf club rationale?