Nose wheel Steering

[MarinMooney]

I am a new M20C owner.  I find the nose wheel steering to be much more sensitive than any other tricycle or tailwheel aircraft I have flown.  Is this common to Mooney's?  Besides experience, is there any way to mitigate the tendency to over control?

[bonal]

Hey Marin Mooney welcome to MSpace is that Marin as in the north bay. As for steering it's like all things Mooney the controls are very responsive but as you spend time you will acquire the feel and it will be second nature. Tell us a bit more about yourself and of coarse picture of your new pride and joy.

[MarinMooney]

Thanks for the quick reply.  I appreciate it!  I am upgrading from a Cessna 120 to a M20C, so I am looking forward to being able to take some luggage and actually take some trips!  Plane is at Smith Ranch.

[bonal]

Very nice looking forward to learning more about you and your C your just 20 Mooney minutes south 

[MB65E]

Hi Marin!! Welcome! I think you spoke of the steering correctly regarding its sensitivity. It's slightly more direct than most nose dragger. As a new owner, I would make sure the gear is rigged properly. It will save an insurance claim. Many others have commented on the same topic. The search function on the site works fairly well. The nose landing gear has bushings that can ware. There are service bulletins that address the way the nose wheel trails on its pivot point. Worn landing gear biscuits on the nose can cause this alignment to be off. The mooney site has these SB's posted. Rigging of the steering can be challenging if it's worked on by a shop that thinks they know what they are doing. I would check or have it checked out just to eliminate any unknowns. Some easy things to check are feet off taxi to see if it taxis straight. Also play in the steering. By taking the tow bar on the nose gear, gently move it left or right. Your rudder should follow the movements with very little delay or slop. I'd say any more movement than an inch of deflection at the tow bar with out rudder movement would make me look where the slop is coming from. Lasar in Clear lake CA can rebuild this steering assemble if needed for less than $1k.  All common stuff on our older airplanes. 

All the techs on here will also have great advice too.

Welcome again!

Best,

-Matt

[bonal]

2 minutes ago, MB65E said:

Hi Marin!! Welcome! I think you spoke of the steering correctly regarding its sensitivity. It's slightly more direct than most nose dragged. As a new owner, I would make sure the gear is rigged properly. It will save an insurance claim. Many others have commented on the same topic. The search function on the site works fairly well. The nose landing gear has bushings that can ware. There are service bulletins that address the way the nose wheel trails on its pivot point. Worn landing gear biscuits on the nose can cause this alignment to be off. The mooney site has these SB's posted. Rigging of the steering can be challenging if it's worked on by a shop that thinks they know what they are doing. I would check or have it checked out just to eliminate any unknowns. Some easy things to check are feet off taxi to see if it taxis straight. Also play in the steering. By taking the tow bar on the nose gear, gently move it left or right. Your rudder should follow the movements with very little delay or slop. I'd say any more movement than an inch of deflection at the tow bar with out rudder movement would make me look where the slop is coming from. Lasar in Clear lake CA can rebuild this steering assemble if needed for less than $1k.  All common stuff on our older airplanes. 

All the techs on here will also have great advice too.

Welcome again!

Best,

-Matt

Or it could just be more sensitive than he is used to but check it out as described when I transitioned from my 150 I noticed the steering to be more sensitive than my Cessna

[TTaylor]

Welcome to MS.  The steering is sensitive but should not be too sensitive.  For a new Mooney owner it may be hard to tell if the plane is OK or has a problem.  I would recommend flying with an experienced Mooney pilot. 

Read Don Maxwell's article about when there is a problem. 

http://www.donmaxwell.com/publications/MAPA_TEXT/M20-202%20-%20Eight-Second%20Ride/EIGHT_SECOND_RIDE.HTM

 

 

[MB65E]

Cool! But for a tail wheel guy to say it's sensitive... I'd have it looked at. He's probably not the typical 172 driver. :-)

-Matt

[MarinMooney]

Thanks for all the great posts.  Look forward to learning from your experience.  No tail wheel bashing though.  Tail wheel pilots are people too!

[MB65E]

Haha! None at all! I have not flown the 120 but played with a c90 140 for a summer. Flown maybe 5 different Luscombes

I'll probably build a clipped wing 8A one day.

-Matt

[Raptor05121]

Marin, welcome to the club. I had to look up your plane with that tailnumber, just 25 digits off from mine- N6744U. It turns out your plane is 14 days older than mine. Mooney must have been making two planes a day at that rate

[Guest]

5 hours ago, MarinMooney said:

I am a new M20C owner.  I find the nose wheel steering to be much more sensitive than any other tricycle or tailwheel aircraft I have flown.  Is this common to Mooney's?  Besides experience, is there any way to mitigate the tendency to over control?

Here is the SB in question.

http://www.mooney.com/en/sb/M20-202.pdf

Clarence

[Ratherbflying]

When we first got our C, the nose was all over the place on the takeoff and landing roll. The crusty old CFI doing our checkout, who had a lot of Mooney experience, told us "Mooneys just do that. You have to be careful."

He had flown in a lot of Mooneys... and a lot of Mooneys have worn out bearings in the nose gear. When we finally got a mechanic who recognized the problem, we wrote a check to LASAR and the nose has tracked straight and true ever since.

[rbridges]

It's good to see another C model guy on the boards.  I stepped up from a cherokee and haven't looked back.  You're going to love the bump in speed!

[bonal]

Seems like the OP was not describing sloppy steering which I would say linkages etc. need to be checked but more like very responsive steering. At least that's the way I took it to mean. I did not realize Smith Ranch was active. Clearly looking at earth there is quite a group there.  Hope you find lots of joy flying your C

[MarinMooney]

I don't think it is the linkage since the plane tracks straight.  It is just on landing that I get the pilot induced oscillation.  I'm guessing it is a pilot issue, and not a plane issue!  Flying S  Aviation at RHV has been doing the  maintenance, and seem to be on top of things.  LASAR has done some maintenance in the past, so I may take it back to them just to look it over.  

Smith Ranch is still active.  I have only been there a few years, but from my understanding it used to be a very active airport with lots of BBQs etc.  Quite a bit of car restoration takes place there now.

[Ratherbflying]

You can tell if it's the linkages this way: Jack up the airplane. Grab the nose wheel and wiggle it to see how much play is in it. There should be close to none.

Also... Check the logbooks to see if/when the nose gear was tended to.

The Don Maxwell article above is great, this LASAR article gives you an idea of what can go wrong:

http://www.lasar.com/docs/mooney%20shock%20disc%20replacement%20and%20nose%20gear%20wear%20and%20tear-5.pdf

I thought it was a pilot issue too... It wasn't.

 

 

[rbridges]

2 hours ago, MarinMooney said:

I don't think it is the linkage since the plane tracks straight.  It is just on landing that I get the pilot induced oscillation.  I'm guessing it is a pilot issue, and not a plane issue!  Flying S  Aviation at RHV has been doing the  maintenance, and seem to be on top of things.  LASAR has done some maintenance in the past, so I may take it back to them just to look it over.  

Smith Ranch is still active.  I have only been there a few years, but from my understanding it used to be a very active airport with lots of BBQs etc.  Quite a bit of car restoration takes place there now.

 

is it wobbling during rollout?  It may be the steering horn.  There are a few threads about it.  You can buy a rebuilt one from LASAR.  You can sometimes tell by moving the rudder side to side with your hand.  I noticed the amount of play decreased quite a bit after fixing mine.  It went from 1.5" to half that.

[mike20papa]

I think Mooneys ground handling is unique for a couple of reasons.  First, the nose wheel is always directly linked to the rudder, it never disconnects like a Cessna nose wheel.  Xwind landings are different, to say the least.  Second, the aircraft sits with considerable weight on the nose.  When landing full stall, the nose rotates thru and comes down with a distinctive "suredness" Then, it will "over steer" due to the weight, especially if you relax the yoke.  For me, take off is the same, keep the yoke back or else it's over steer tendencies can get to be an aggravation.  Now, that said, I would check the linkage, it's all very short coupled and any play can cause excessive nose wheel steering issues.  Next annual, raise the nose and by hand move the nose wheel right/left and check for play at center position.  There are several places to check for wear.  For now, just enjoy the airplane where it belongs..in the air.  The ground taxi is just an inconvenience.

[Hank]

Mine is much easier to turn around on the runway than either Skyhawk I flew as a student. But my Mooney turns tighter to the right than to the left, something I remember everytime I turn around to back taxi, or maneuver through tight areas.

[takair]

SB 20-202 makes all the difference in the world.  I flew mine for years thinking "that's just the way Mooney's are".  I think it was after I flew a customers Mooney many years ago that I realized mine was "not right".  Then I added that little washer and it handled like a different airplane.  The castor angle seems to change from one Mooney to another, one set of shock pucks to another, wear and tear, and may even change with rigging.  There is a sweet spot and this SB will get you there.  Mine was especially bad right at rotation and landing with the nose gear light.

[MarinMooney]

Takair,  Thank you very much for your post re SB20-202.  Just completed the mod at LASAR aviation at Lampson Field, Clear Lake CA.  It is like a new plane!  Like you said, there is an issue with the castor angle  on some model Mooneys.  Fix was relatively short.  Took about 2 hours.  I owe you!

[takair]

3 hours ago, MarinMooney said:

Takair,  Thank you very much for your post re SB20-202.  Just completed the mod at LASAR aviation at Lampson Field, Clear Lake CA.  It is like a new plane!  Like you said, there is an issue with the castor angle  on some model Mooneys.  Fix was relatively short.  Took about 2 hours.  I owe you!

Glad it worked out.  It is one of the cheapest things you can do to a plane and get such drastic improvement.  Ironically I just started another nose gear related job, LASAR nose gear steering linkage.  Old link had gotten quite sloppy. So far it's been a PITA.

[MarinMooney]

Interesting.  My understanding is if there are any weak areas, or areas requiring attention on Mooney's, it is nose wheel issues.

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, MarinMooney said:

Interesting.  My understanding is if there are any weak areas, or areas requiring attention on Mooney's, it is nose wheel issues.

Leaking fuel tanks and corrosion would be high on the list.

Clarence