J-bar folks: How do you handle gear on a go-around?

[flyer7324]

I understand but not necessary in the C model

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[M20F]

I just leave it down, go around implies I am going to land again and really no need to bring it up as I don't want to be over 120mph and it being down doesn't really impact ROC by much.  Mooney gear doesn't really account for enough drag where I worry about it.

Likewise I rarely use more than 1/2 flaps so I am configured always for maximum lift.  

[Andy95W]

13 hours ago, orionflt said:

I disagree with your non emergency go around vs emergency go around philosophy, I believe that you practice for the real emergency or go around that way when you need to do it in the actual low min environment it will be second nature. also, when ever you are practicing an emergency procedure (emergency or not) you have increased your risk factor, you may only be simulating the emergency 

When is a go around, either VFR or IFR, ever considered an emergency?

[Shadrach]

9 hours ago, N1395W said:

When is a go around, either VFR or IFR, ever considered an emergency?

Very rarely. I would consider a Runway incursion (plane or beast) when crossing the numbers an emergency. Extreme winds can also necessitate an "emergency" go around.  Other than those 2 scenarios, it is a process that is easily thought through and performed.

[kellym]

On 4/12/2016 at 6:47 AM, N201MKTurbo said:

Don't power all the way up. Just power up to about 20 in. This should give you a positive ROC with approach configuration. Retract the gear, power up a bit more, retract the flaps and then configure for climb. You can do all this in about 10 seconds without rushing and never be mis-trimed.

I very much agree with this. You have two very different scenarios. The VFR go around below 50 ft you need to get at least 100 ft in the air and you need about 80-85 mph for a Vx and gear retraction. Gear needs to come up before flaps. After gear is up you can retract flaps as you approach 100 mph and passing 200 ft. It may or may not be an emergency, but once climbing above 50 ft there is no emergency.

IFR in a 68 or earlier Mooney means NO flaps if flying approach at 100 mph (88kts) or faster.  I normally fly IFR approaches at 115 mph or 100 kts to give margin from max gear speed, and to fit in with other traffic.  Any go around will be at 200 ft AGL or higher, which means pitching to 85 mph before adding much power, and it is NOT an emergency, lots of time to stop descent, add some power and get gear up before going to full power. Should be a methodical, unhurried procedure to maintain control and stay stabilized.

I very much disagree with teaching all go arounds as an emergency. Leads to high risk rote maneuvers with risk of losing control.  Kind of like trying to cage an engine of a light twin just after rotation as fast as possible...

[Andy95W]

12 hours ago, Shadrach said:

Very rarely. I would consider a Runway incursion (plane or beast) when crossing the numbers an emergency. Extreme winds can also necessitate an "emergency" go around.  Other than those 2 scenarios, it is a process that is easily thought through and performed.

I understand what you are saying, but I will always maintain that a go around is never an emergency, it's just flying the airplane.

I could see some situations that would require a short-notice or unexpected go around, but even so, that's hardly an emergency.

Edited April 13, 2016 by N1395W

[DXB]

Interesting discussion- clearly there's a few different options for skinning this particular cat.  For now I'm hoping to get a single go around procedure down that I can execute calmly, smoothly and reliably from motor memory, irrespective of the situation in which it is applied- just for practice, cut off on runway on short final, scary crosswind gust in the flare, bad bounce, or missed approach at DA. Once I have it down, hopefully then it will be easy to modify based on situational nuance. Of course leaving the gear down vfr is simplest and seems totally reasonable, but doesn't leave me prepared for my IR training, where I'd like to be able to fly my plane with decent proficiency from day 1. Last Sunday, my yawing wildly and begging my instructor to take the airplane so I could wrestle the bar with both hands didn't create the feeling of proficiency 

BTW I have really enjoyed reading the debate and diversity of opinion here from experienced folks, and am sure I will refer back to this thread again as I get further in to my IR. You guys are the models of reason and civility that certain others on the internet should try to emulate .

[orionflt]

35 minutes ago, kellym said:

I very much agree with this. You have two very different scenarios. The VFR go around below 50 ft you need to get at least 100 ft in the air and you need about 80-85 mph for a Vx and gear retraction. Gear needs to come up before flaps. After gear is up you can retract flaps as you approach 100 mph and passing 200 ft. It may or may not be an emergency, but once climbing above 50 ft there is no emergency.

IFR in a 68 or earlier Mooney means NO flaps if flying approach at 100 mph (88kts) or faster.  I normally fly IFR approaches at 115 mph or 100 kts to give margin from max gear speed, and to fit in with other traffic.  Any go around will be at 200 ft AGL or higher, which means pitching to 85 mph before adding much power, and it is NOT an emergency, lots of time to stop descent, add some power and get gear up before going to full power. Should be a methodical, unhurried procedure to maintain control and stay stabilized.

I very much disagree with teaching all go arounds as an emergency. Leads to high risk rote maneuvers with risk of losing control.  Kind of like trying to cage an engine of a light twin just after rotation as fast as possible...

nobody said that an emergency procedure had to happen fast, it needs to be done correctly! as for go arounds not being an emergency, it may not be a fire or an engine failure but you are aborting a landing which means it is not standard landing procedure. losing comms inflight does not require you to ditch your aircraft but it is still an emergency. when you initiate a go around you are transitioning from a landing configuration to a flying config you have to compensate for the added thrust, bring up the gear and flaps retrim and that is only part of it. what happens if your engine quits? or your aborting because of wind sheer? there is a lot going on all at once! we do not practice not to land but we do practice what to do if we can not land safely. an abort may not be a critical emergency but it is non standard requiring action outside the norm IE an emergency, that is why we practice it. 

Brian

[Andy95W]

Sorry, Brian, I'm still going to disagree that a go-around is ever an emergency.  It is a maneuver, albeit a rarely practiced or executed maneuver.  That may make it feel like an emergency, but then that probably just means that individual doesn't practice them enough.

What happens if the engine quits? What happens if it quits on takeoff?  The engine failure is the emergency, not the go around.

What if there's wind shear?   The wind shear creates the emergency, the go around is simply the phase of flight that it happened in.

You're right, there is a lot going on during a go around.  That's why we have to practice them.  My suggestion to students is to practice 3 different go arounds:

1.) at or near pattern altitude (usually a non-event)

2.) medium altitude (500' AGL or so, NOT with full flaps).  This also approximates a missed approach from an instrument procedure

3.) very low altitude, almost like a touch and go where you don't actually touch down.  I agree, this is the most potentially hazardous

[orionflt]

41 minutes ago, N1395W said:

1.) at or near pattern altitude (usually a non-event)

2.) medium altitude (500' AGL or so, NOT with full flaps).  This also approximates a missed approach from an instrument procedure

3.) very low altitude, almost like a touch and go where you don't actually touch down.  I agree, this is the most potentially hazardous

I definitely agree with your assessment, do I worry if I have to go around, no I have already evaluated all my option and the potential results prior to entering the pattern. would I put it on an emergency checklist... no but I do feel that this phase of flight is probably one of the most critical and deserves the proper attention and training. the biggest thing I disagreed with is having majorly different procedures for the abort based on altitude, calling the abort an emergency or not is just an opinion. there was talk about not or partially applying power until the gear is retracted, this may work fine at 1000 ft but not at 100. if you are practicing that all the time and you get in the situation where you have to abort at 100ft what will the tendency be? To do what you practice! and as you said low altitude is the most potentially hazardous time to abort.  

once again just my opinion, but I do love these discussions because of the inputs from so many. It allows us to build our knowledge and improve our skills.

Brian  

[Shadrach]

34 minutes ago, orionflt said:

I definitely agree with your assessment, do I worry if I have to go around, no I have already evaluated all my option and the potential results prior to entering the pattern. would I put it on an emergency checklist... no but I do feel that this phase of flight is probably one of the most critical and deserves the proper attention and training. the biggest thing I disagreed with is having majorly different procedures for the abort based on altitude, calling the abort an emergency or not is just an opinion. there was talk about not or partially applying power until the gear is retracted, this may work fine at 1000 ft but not at 100. if you are practicing that all the time and you get in the situation where you have to abort at 100ft what will the tendency be? To do what you practice! and as you said low altitude is the most potentially hazardous time to abort.  

once again just my opinion, but I do love these discussions because of the inputs from so many. It allows us to build our knowledge and improve our skills.

Brian  

As always it depends.  If one elects to go around because they're so hot that they're going to float down the runway why would adding partial power while the gear is raised no cause an unsafe situation. We can't have it both ways..."I'm so fast I'll never get it down and stopped" and "I'm so slow I may stall at any moment so I need full power" cannot be the same situation.  I'll guess that Dev as configured for "hot laps" with an instructor stalls somewhere around 55MPH (about the same as PA28-180). At 200' AGL on short final the instructor says "go around your too fast" how does that 35mph stall margin suddenly become so critical that adding a little power, arresting the descent and raising the gear becomes dangerous?  

[DonMuncy]

3 hours ago, Shadrach said:

As always it depends.  If one elects to go around because they're so hot that they're going to float down the runway why would adding partial power while the gear is raised no cause an unsafe situation. We can't have it both ways..."I'm so fast I'll never get it down and stopped" and "I'm so slow I may stall at any moment so I need full power" cannot be the same situation.  I'll guess that Dev as configured for "hot laps" with an instructor stalls somewhere around 55MPH (about the same as PA28-180). At 200' AGL on short final the instructor says "go around your too fast" how does that 35mph stall margin suddenly become so critical that adding a little power, arresting the descent and raising the gear becomes dangerous?  

Ross,

I think the problem is the perception. With full flaps, adding a bunch of power (at least in my K) produces a very noticeable nose up attitude. I can understand that a pilot, used to take-off flaps, could fear a stall because of the unusual attitude, until they have done it a few times..

[M20F]

On April 13, 2016 at 10:58 AM, kellym said:

I very much agree with this. You have two very different scenarios. The VFR go around below 50 ft you need to get at least 100 ft in the air and you need about 80-85 mph for a Vx and gear retraction. Gear needs to come up before flaps. After gear is up you can retract flaps as you approach 100 mph and passing 200 ft. It may or may not be an emergency, but once climbing above 50 ft there is no emergency.

IFR in a 68 or earlier Mooney means NO flaps if flying approach at 100 mph (88kts) or faster.  I normally fly IFR approaches at 115 mph or 100 kts to give margin from max gear speed, and to fit in with other traffic.  Any go around will be at 200 ft AGL or higher, which means pitching to 85 mph before adding much power, and it is NOT an emergency, lots of time to stop descent, add some power and get gear up before going to full power. Should be a methodical, unhurried procedure to maintain control and stay stabilized.

I very much disagree with teaching all go arounds as an emergency. Leads to high risk rote maneuvers with risk of losing control.  Kind of like trying to cage an engine of a light twin just after rotation as fast as possible...

I very much disagree with not adding full power.   Power changes tend to lead to bad things such as a cylinder loss.  A 4 cylinder going to 3 with only 75% power may not make it happen.  Pitch up is to be expected and can be planned for and countered.  A loss of a cylinder is less predictable. 

[jetdriven]

These engines aren't made of glass.. Selecting full throttle for go around on a low powered single is a completely normal thing and is well inside the design limits and normal envelope. There are many factors but "I don't want to go full power for this go-around because I don't want to blow a cylinder off" shouldn't be in the top 100. 

[Shadrach]

On April 14, 2016 at 8:09 PM, DonMuncy said:

Ross,

I think the problem is the perception. With full flaps, adding a bunch of power (at least in my K) produces a very noticeable nose up attitude. I can understand that a pilot, used to take-off flaps, could fear a stall because of the unusual attitude, until they have done it a few times..

So when you raise your take off flaps, the nose drops? The opposite happens in my F. When I raise flaps the nose comes up

[Shadrach]

On April 13, 2016 at 0:01 PM, DXB said:

Interesting discussion- clearly there's a few different options for skinning this particular cat.  For now I'm hoping to get a single go around procedure down that I can execute calmly, smoothly and reliably from motor memory, irrespective of the situation in which it is applied- just for practice, cut off on runway on short final, scary crosswind gust in the flare, bad bounce, or missed approach at DA. Once I have it down, hopefully then it will be easy to modify based on situational nuance. Of course leaving the gear down vfr is simplest and seems totally reasonable, but doesn't leave me prepared for my IR training, where I'd like to be able to fly my plane with decent proficiency from day 1. Last Sunday, my yawing wildly and begging my instructor to take the airplane so I could wrestle the bar with both hands didn't create the feeling of proficiency 

BTW I have really enjoyed reading the debate and diversity of opinion here from experienced folks, and am sure I will refer back to this thread again as I get further in to my IR. You guys are the models of reason and civility that certain others on the internet should try to emulate .

Dev, I forget what you were flying prior to the C.

[DonMuncy]

Just now, Shadrach said:

So when you raise your take off flaps, the nose drops? The opposite happens in my F. When I raise flaps the nose comes up

When I wrote that, I was 100% certain I knew what I was talking about. In retrospect I'm not so sure. Yes, my nose comes up when I raise the flaps. Maybe it is because I have it trimmed way up for landing that wants to climb when power is applied.

Never mind my rambling when I type before I think. Thank goodness we have folks here to catch me when I do.

[Shadrach]

 

2 minutes ago, DonMuncy said:

When I wrote that, I was 100% certain I knew what I was talking about. In retrospect I'm not so sure. Yes, my nose comes up when I raise the flaps. Maybe it is because I have it trimmed way up for landing that wants to climb when power is applied.

Never mind my rambling when I type before I think. Thank goodness we have folks here to catch me when I do.

I think I know what you mean. On a go around, adding power and raising flaps can cause the nose to come up pretty rapidly and if your not ready to counter it, it can be disconcerting.

[carusoam]

Power on vs. power off differences....

putting flaps down in the traffic pattern under low power requires a lot of up trim to keep the nose from pointing down.  Powered trim is geared to go at the same rate the flaps deploy. Start them both at the same time....

Adding full power during the go-around, the nose will start to go skyward with flaps down.

 

Pondering the emergency part of go-arounds...  If there is an emergency where full power is used in the go-around procedure, then I would be a fan of practicing it as If I were to use it.

Letting all 310 ponies out of the barn all at once takes some practice keeping under control...lots of torque, p-factor and low amount of tail authority at low airspeeds.

 

Go-arounds with the J-bar and mechanical trim are ....worth practicing!

Best regards,

-a-

[Shadrach]

48 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Power on vs. power off differences....

putting flaps down in the traffic pattern under low power requires a lot of up trim to keep the nose from pointing down.  Powered trim is geared to go at the same rate the flaps deploy. Start them both at the same time....

Adding full power during the go-around, the nose will start to go skyward with flaps down.

 

Pondering the emergency part of go-arounds...  If there is an emergency where full power is used in the go-around procedure, then I would be a fan of practicing it as If I were to use it.

Letting all 310 ponies out of the barn all at once takes some practice keeping under control...lots of torque, p-factor and low amount of tail authority at low airspeeds.

 

Go-arounds with the J-bar and mechanical trim are ....worth practicing!

Best regards,

-a-

The nose will almost always go skyward when adding power regardless of configuration.  It will go less skyward with flaps down.  Long bodies may be different, but I can't think of why they would be. Flaps change the cord of the wing. This change increases angle of incidence. For a given AOA, the nose should be lower with flaps down.

[gsxrpilot]

I've only got 180 ponies and they're pretty docile. A go around for me would most likely involve all of them and the pitch up would be expected. I can't imagine an "emergency" that would involve anything more than an immediate application of full power. Flaps, trim, and gear are all as needed, if appropriate, and when time allows.

Isn't the basic principal here to practice until you can simply stay ahead of the airplane?

[Shadrach]

7 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

I've only got 180 ponies and they're pretty docile. A go around for me would most likely involve all of them and the pitch up would be expected. I can't imagine an "emergency" that would involve anything more than an immediate application of full power. Flaps, trim, and gear are all as needed, if appropriate, and when time allows.

Isn't the basic principal here to practice until you can simply stay ahead of the airplane?

Some pilots physically struggle with the gear.  See Chris's earlier post about riding right seat -

"I flew safety pilot with a guy in an F with the J bar. Twice on the six approaches we flew he couldn't get the gear up without me helping."  

Leaving the gear down is a fine option, however there are scenarios I can envision where it could be a problem. So what do you do if you're gear down but above a speed that makes the gear easy to manage?

[gsxrpilot]

Just now, Shadrach said:

Some pilots physically struggle with the gear.  See Chris's earlier post about riding right seat -

"I flew safety pilot with a guy in an F with the J bar. Twice on the six approaches we flew he couldn't get the gear up without me helping."  

Leaving the gear down is a fine option, however there are scenarios I can envision where it could be a problem. So what do you do if you're gear down but above a speed that makes the gear easy to manage?

You'll have to give me a scenario because I can't think of one where leaving the gear down is a problem, or where I couldn't safely slow to a comfortable gear speed to raise it.

[Bob_Belville]

In a normal, full flaps, landing as flaps are deployed the nose wants to drop so you hold back on the yoke and trim nose up. On an abort those actions have to be reversed. With my mechanical (hydraulic) flaps dumping flaps happens much faster than the nose up trim can be unwound. And since you've also slowed to something like 1.3 or even 1.2 x Vso it is imperative that AS be increased before dumping flaps (Vs is 17% higher than Vso for my E). Therefore: step 1 - full power to increase speed to at least Vx with positive rate of climb, and 2 - dump flaps and trim down to offset the elevator (down) pressure you're exerting to maintain Vx (or Vy when you're comfortably clear of terrain). IMHO raising the gear can wait until you are close to being in trim.

Mooneys with electric gear and flaps may allow the pilot more flexibility, as if she had more hands. 

[Shadrach]

2 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

You'll have to give me a scenario because I can't think of one where leaving the gear down is a problem, or where I couldn't safely slow to a comfortable gear speed to raise it.

Actually, neither can I but it seems to be the whole center of this thread!