Mooney M20c summer service ceiling

[johnhoge]

What kind of ceiling can I expect in an M20C with full fuel, one pilot and minimal baggage? I've seen 15,000 on the web, but tend to doubt that. What about on a hot day?

[Ron McBride]

15,000 is all I could get out of my F on a hot summer day at about 2400 lbs.. On cool days I have at 15000 and still climbing.

Ron

[Hank]

Just to see what it's like, I took a CFII and an OK bottle to ride in early August just before heading to Yellowstone. Climb was poor, and I leveled of to accelerate a couple of times. Gave up at 15,000 msl, since 16,000 would have required talking to Center. We practiced emergency descents coming down and never left the nearby Class D Approach. 

I ran the numbers latergobraves@yahoo.com but no longer have them. With temperatures, pressures, etc., 15,000 msl was 18,800 DA.

[Hank]

Realistically,  I rarely cruise above 10,000 msl but used 11 000 a couple times along the NC/TN border when the winds were howling from the west. I generally travel at 9000 east and either 8 or 10 westbound. 

[johnhoge]

Thanks guys

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard, John.

Great question.  It's that time of year we get to discuss warm weather and useful load.

Be familiar with the effects of temperature related to Density Altitude.  How it effects your power output, Take-Off roll and your climb performance.  These could be more important to the safety of the flight than ceiling.

i'm more worried about getting off the ground and staying out of the trees than whether my plane only reaches 14k' or 15k'.

know how to calculate both aspects and where the data comes from, please.  This is very important to have in order.

you are going to need an M20C POH of the latest version (mid 70s).

Asside from the safety warning, what do you have in mind? 

Best regards,

-a-

[Yooper Rocketman]

2 hours ago, Hank said:

 Gave up at 15,000 msl, since 16,000 would have required talking to Center

 

Why would you need to talk to center?  You should be good to 17,500.

Tom

[Mcoyne34]

Just now, Yooper Rocketman said:

Why would you need to talk to center?  You should be good to 17,500.

Tom

He was probably on an IFR flight plan and the approach control airspace only goes up to 15k. 

 

Just a guess. 

Edited March 15, 2016 by Mcoyne34

[Yooper Rocketman]

My experience has been unless in the mountains, approach usually will give you over to center at 12k.

Tom

[Hank]

We were VFR, on FF from the nearby Class D. They asked how high we were going on our "maintenance flight," a long racetrack pattern that got longer as we went higher. They said they would have to hand us off by 16K. This was over the rolling terrain where WV, KY and OH all come together, and the mountains begin to taper off the the north and west. I'm not going to dispute what ATC says about their procedures; our airport had pretty good relationships with them. Being 4nm from their runway, I learned to talk in the radio from Lesson #1, getting and using flight following.

[FlyGuy641]

I have a 1962 M20C flown primarily in the mountains of Wyoming and Utah. I fly at 11,500 and 12,500 with frequent diversions to 14,000 for terrain. I haven't had her above 14,000, but I have no doubt that she would do it especially in the cold winter air of Wyoming. 

[markgrue]

I was at 15500 coming over the rockies just west of pueblo and there was an antenna a couple miles to the north that was higher then I was.

 

Mark

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard Guy!

 

[Tcraft938]

On 3/14/2016 at 9:06 PM, carusoam said:

Welcome aboard, John.

Great question.  It's that time of year we get to discuss warm weather and useful load.

Be familiar with the effects of temperature related to Density Altitude.  How it effects your power output, Take-Off roll and your climb performance.  These could be more important to the safety of the flight than ceiling.

i'm more worried about getting off the ground and staying out of the trees than whether my plane only reaches 14k' or 15k'.

know how to calculate both aspects and where the data comes from, please.  This is very important to have in order.

you are going to need an M20C POH of the latest version (mid 70s).

Asside from the safety warning, what do you have in mind? 

Best regards,

-a-

You bring up an interesting point to me when you refer to getting a late 70's POH.  I'm curious did you say this because the original poster has a mid 70's C or because as time went on the POH got more info?  I have a 63 and the POH or Owner's Manual is more like an expanded pamphlet.  I downloaded a 1974 and was surprised there was a lot more information and some pretty significant differences.  For example the 1963 cruise charts show speeds about 10 mph faster, but also significantly higher fuel burn than the charts of 1974. The later mentions density altitude, not the 1963.  I was wondering if the slower speeds were because of modifications to the airframe, increased empty weight with more modern radio gadgets, however I suspect that in 1963 it was rich mixture to best power, where 1974 it says lean to peak (engine roughness) and then enrichen until smooth.  According to the Mike Busch videos I've watched, I'm betting he would recommend the 1974 method over the 1963, unless breaking in a new engine.   Just curious on your thoughts?  Thanks

[Hank]

@Tcraft938, I generally fly my '70C so that the numbers on MP dial and Tach add to 46.

Down low, short trips--23"/2300

Mid-level, trips < ~45-60 min--22"/2400

7500 msl and up, traveling--WOT less a little / 2500

I pull the throttle at altitude just enough to make the MP needle wiggle, which shuts off the auto enrichment circuit in the carb at WOT, and hope that the cocked throttle body creates turbulence to better atomize the fuel and make a more homogeneous mixture before routing to the cylinders. 

Does it work? My engine performs well . . . . Been doing this for ~800 hours and I often get 147-148 KTAS at altitude, with a 3-blade Hartzell prop.

[Oscar Avalle]

with my M20C in the winter 17K is ok, but once temperature starts going up... in the summer the limit is closer to 15k.

[carusoam]

12 hours ago, Tcraft938 said:

You bring up an interesting point to me when you refer to getting a late 70's POH.  I'm curious did you say this because the original poster has a mid 70's C or because as time went on the POH got more info?  I have a 63 and the POH or Owner's Manual is more like an expanded pamphlet.  I downloaded a 1974 and was surprised there was a lot more information and some pretty significant differences.  For example the 1963 cruise charts show speeds about 10 mph faster, but also significantly higher fuel burn than the charts of 1974. The later mentions density altitude, not the 1963.  I was wondering if the slower speeds were because of modifications to the airframe, increased empty weight with more modern radio gadgets, however I suspect that in 1963 it was rich mixture to best power, where 1974 it says lean to peak (engine roughness) and then enrichen until smooth.  According to the Mike Busch videos I've watched, I'm betting he would recommend the 1974 method over the 1963, unless breaking in a new engine.   Just curious on your thoughts?  Thanks

I say this because when I bought my 65M20C, it had no POH/OM included with the sale...

So I called the factory to inquire... and was advised to get both... one to be legal, and the other to have the most complete information about the M20C...  this call was transferred to Bill Wheat... I didn’t know at the time who I was actually speaking with...  Later, I found Bill Wheat’s fancy autograph on the first pages of my C’s airframe log... he signed it’s AW 35 years before... 

The 1977 POH is the most complete...  it applies to all M20Cs in a generic way...

The most important data is regarding the flight characteristics...

The most not up to date would be engine operations...

If looking for a reason to disregard all of the data...there are plenty of inconsistencies to be found in each of the ancient texts...

In the end, it is a great document to work from... proving your plane is represented by the data takes some time... flights and experience...

A POH for an M20C in modern times would be similar to an M20R... about three hundred pages without covering all the fancy avionics that weren’t available in the 60s...

The owners manual is about 30 pages long, and spends a lot of time explaining how wonderful you are for purchasing the best aircraft on the planet...    We know that already, no need to waste the print...

For engine operations, there isn’t much better than Mike Bush...

There is one resource though, that goes beyond that... for specific guides to Mooney engine ops... find the writings of one Mr. Bob Kromer....

I bought a Mooney specifically because Mr. Kromer’s writing spoke directly to me...  

He has often given presentations at Mooney community events like Mooney Summit... his writing is printed in the MapaLog, a monthly magazine for all things Mooney... 

PP thoughts only, not a cfi or mechanic...

Best regards,

-a- 

[1346w]

My C model with powerflow exhaust and two blade prop flys great up high.