Just for fun....KECP ILS questions.

[Mooneymite]

Things have been pretty quiet on Mooneyspace recently.  Since the Mooney Summit is in KECP, I thought I’d ask Mooneyspace instrument pilots what they think about the ILS or LOC/DME RWY 16 approach there.

Take a look:  KECP ILS procedure

This is definitely not a test.    Some of these questions are continually, “hotly” contested by those who know far more than I.  This is for entertainment/discussion only….and for the next Summit when it might be hard IFR using RWY16!  If you think I know the answers, you are giving me way too much credit.    Mike, please schedule the Summit for good VMC weather, okay?

1.  Can you shoot the full ILS approach with just an ILS receiver, no DME?  i.e. does DME only refer to the LOC procedure, or must you have Distance Measuring Equipment for either the ILS, or the LOC?  Why?

2.  Can you shoot the LOC using GPS distance information without DME equipment?   Any special set up required, or do you just load the approach from the database?

3.  Can you shoot the ILS using GPS distance information?  How would you set up the 430/530 to do this?

4.  The Garmin 430/530 approach info displays only LIVVY and the RWY.  None of the fixes inside the FAF are stored/displayed.  What effect does this have on the ILS?  The LOC/DME?

5.  If you look at the VOR/DME 16:  KECP VOR/DME  DME appears in the approach name, but unlike the ILS or LOC/DME, it does not say DME required in the notes.  Why is this?  i.e. Why was the note required on the ILS, but not on the VOR approach, even though both include DME in the approach name.

6.  What is the significance of the reverse print (white on black) 'C' on the circling minima?

 

 

 

Edited February 17, 2016 by Mooneymite

[kpaul]

1 hour ago, Mooneymite said:

6.  What is the significance of the reverse print (white on black) 'C' on the circling minima?

This approach is using the new circling approach minima based on a larger circling radii.  I think the changes really only effect cat C and D.

[kpaul]

• 1 hour ago, Mooneymite said:

  1.  Can you shoot the full ILS approach with just an ILS receiver, no DME?  i.e. does DME only refer to the LOC procedure, or must you have Distance Measuring Equipment for either the ILS, or the LOC?  Why?

  2.  Can you shoot the LOC using GPS distance information without DME equipment?   Any special set up required, or do you just load the approach from the database?

  3.  Can you shoot the ILS using GPS distance information?

  Effective July 16, 1998, pilots may substitute IFR-certified GPS receivers for DME and ADF avionics for all operations except NDB approaches without a GPS overlay. GPS can be used in lieu of DME and ADF on all localizer-type approaches as well as VOR/DME approaches, including when charted NDB or DME transmitters are temporarily out of service. It also clarifies that IFR GPS satisfies the requirement for DME at and above Flight Level 240 specified in FAR 91.205(e). This approval represents a major step toward removing the need to retain DME or ADF in our cockpits for any reason.

  Note: Air carrier operators should consult their operations specifications and their principal operations inspector for approval.

  Limitations

  There are still three instances in which DME or ADF are still required.

• NDB approaches that do not have an associated GPS overlay approach must still be flown using an ADF.
• A non-GPS approach procedure must exist at the alternate airport when one is required to be filed by regulation. If the non-GPS approaches on which the pilot must rely require DME or ADF, the aircraft must be equipped with DME or ADF avionics as appropriate. GPS substitution for DME/ADF is not permitted in this case.
• DME transmitters associated with a localizer may not be retrievable from your GPS until the manufacturer incorporates them in the database. Pilots are not authorized to manually enter coordinates.

[kpaul]

1 hour ago, Mooneymite said:

Mooneyspace instrument pilots what they think about the ILS or LOC/DME RWY 16 approach there.

Additionally, I might be cheating because I regularly fly this approach for currency, so I'll leave the rest of the questions for someone else to answer.

[Mooneymite]

So....rather than cut and paste regs....tell us the answers!

[kpaul]

15 minutes ago, Mooneymite said:

So....rather than cut and paste regs....tell us the answers!

I could, but I have to be careful not to quote the military regulations.  Most of them mirror FAA, but not all.  

I just looked up the circling changes to confirm I was not passing false information, and I was wrong it appears that the changes actually affect all categories (A-E) and vary based on the MSL MDA.

[Mooneymite]

Yes, but if you look at our gross weight, our circling minima don't change until field elevation is above 7000'.  We're pretty much 1.3 under either Panops, or US Terps.  Heavier aircraft have significant changes.

[jlunseth]

I'll bite.

 

1.    No.  The chart note plainly says that DME is required for either the ILS or the LOC.  there is no way to identify either of the IAF's without DME, and you would need them to fly the full approach.  

2, 3, 4.   You can substitute GPS for DME.  You would need to do one of two things.  The DME distances are from I-PUK, not from RWY, and the GPS will give you distances from RWY if you just load the approach.  So you would need to add 1.8 to whatever the distance is to RWY at a given moment, or you would need to not load the approach, but load a course direct I-PUK, which will give you the correct distance to I-PUK.  Yes, you can use GPS as a substitute for DME for either the LOC or the ILS.  Not having the fixes inside the FAF loaded in the GPS does not affect anything.  They are irrelevant to an ILS, since you have the glideslope, and that is probably why the 430/530 does not have them.  You loaded the ILS approach.  You might try loading the LOC approach if it is available in the 430/530, it may have the fixes, but you do not need them as long as you use the GPS to establish DME distances.

5.   DME or GPS substitute is required for the VOR approach because it is in the approach name, and there is no ambiguity, as there might be in an ILS or LOC/DME approach, about whether DME equipment is needed for just one of the two listed approaches.

[Mooneymite]

I tend to agree with you.

I think GPS distance can be used as long as IPUK is a retrieveable waypoint in your database.....entering the LAT/LONG doesn't cut it.

While it probably makes very little difference in reality, I suspect that "technically" one must display distance to IPUK throughout the approach to be legal.  

In my GNS 430, IPUK is a retrieveable waypoint, so by making IPUK the active waypoint, distance is continually available.  Obviously, you must fly the lateral/vertical guidance of the LOC or ILS...not GPS guidance.  I do not think that "doing the math" from various waypoints is what the approach design is about, thus the reference to DME three different places on the procedure plate.

Disclaimer:  I'm not a CFI-I, or a Philadelphia Lawyer.

[Loogie]

You can ident Ottoe IAF for a precision app with radar, as depicted on the plate.  The ILS is a decision height ergo no DME required for the terminal portion of the approach.  The title says ILS or LOC/DME, one or the other authorized.   As long as you can identify OTTOE w radar then no need for DME.  Missed approach needs GPS or radial/DME equipment to ID OLISS.

I would shoot that approach with my equipment.  GNS530W, ILS and GPS substitute for DME.

I think the trouble T makes it official that you have to have DME though.

[Piloto]

DME is required on the LOC approach to identify the MAP point. On ILS only DME is not required since the MAP is identified by altitude as you descend on the glide slope.

José

[jlunseth]

I agree with you Jose, except the question was "shoot the full ILS approach."  To do that, you need to get on the approach to start with.  If you get vectored to the approach you don't need the IAF's, and I guess I put radar in the same bucket, that is, ATC puts you on the approach.  "Shoot the full approach" the way I was taught it means to get on the approach own nav.  

[Mooneymite]

11 hours ago, Piloto said:

DME is required on the LOC approach to identify the MAP point. On ILS only DME is not required since the MAP is identified by altitude as you descend on the glide slope.

I do not agree.  Regardless of other factors, one must positively identify the IAP.

Edited February 20, 2016 by Mooneymite

[Piloto]

You can also identify the MAP by timing from the FAF to the MAP using the timing table at bottom of this approach or the VOR radial on this approach http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1602/05942IL9.PDF This approach used to have a marker beacon to identify the MAP but is no longer there. Identifying the MAP on a LOC only approach is important to prevent you from hitting high terrain that could be beyond the runway end since there is no indication from the LOC signal when the runway threshold has been passed.

José

[Loogie]

In ref to question #5:  DME is required for that approach, not necessary to clarify under notes as that is the only approach depicted.  On the ILS LOC/DME there are two approaches, the non-precision needs DME while the precision can use radar to replace DME.  The missed approach on a precision approach is decision height, no DME required.  For the LOC, you need DME as depicted.

 

[joegoersch]

If you want even more confusion look at ILS or LOC/DME Z RWY 19 at KRUT.  There is NO note anywhere that DME is required.  Nothing except name of the approach.

http://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/1702/00968ildz19.pdf#search=KRUT

HOWEVER-impossible to fly the published missed (ILS or LOC) without DME.

I don't know how you'd know this from the title, and a super confusing plate.  It'd suck to go down to ILS minimums, go missed and realize you can't fly the published missed !!!

[PTK]

DME is in the title of the approach therefore required.

[joegoersch]

14 minutes ago, PTK said:

DME is in the title of the approach therefore required.

I'm not so sure about that...do you know where it says this in the AIM ?  How can you tell if the DME is just for the LOC approach or for both LOC and ILS?

If that's the case, then why would the KECP ILS or LOC/DME RWY 16 mention DME required TWICE-in the notes and in the plan view !  There'd be no need if mentioning DME in the title covered it.

 

Edited February 7, 2017 by joegoersch

[Hank]

55 minutes ago, joegoersch said:

If you want even more confusion look at ILS or LOC/DME Z RWY 19 at KRUT.  There is NO note anywhere that DME is required.  Nothing except name of the approach.

http://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/1702/00968ildz19.pdf#search=KRUT

HOWEVER-impossible to fly the published missed (ILS or LOC) without DME.

I don't know how you'd know this from the title, and a super confusing plate.  It'd suck to go down to ILS minimums, go missed and realize you can't fly the published missed !!!

The miss looks perfectly flyable with my 430W, the intersection names even come before the DME location. What's the confusion? WAAS GPS is a specifically allowed substitute for DME and ADF.

[joegoersch]

51 minutes ago, Hank said:

The miss looks perfectly flyable with my 430W, the intersection names even come before the DME location. What's the confusion? WAAS GPS is a specifically allowed substitute for DME and ADF.

Yes.  But not flyable in an aircraft with VORs/ILS's and no DME nor GPS...

[PTK]

2 hours ago, joegoersch said:

I'm not so sure about that...do you know where it says this in the AIM ?  How can you tell if the DME is just for the LOC approach or for both LOC and ILS?

If that's the case, then why would the KECP ILS or LOC/DME RWY 16 mention DME required TWICE-in the notes and in the plan view !  There'd be no need if mentioning DME in the title covered it.

 

The title will list equipment required to fly the final approach segment. If more than one is required they are separated by slash. 

Equipment required to fly the initial and intermediate segments will be listed in the notes.

AIM Chapter 5 section 4

(5-4-5)

[kortopates]

1 hour ago, joegoersch said:

I'm not so sure about that...do you know where it says this in the AIM ?  How can you tell if the DME is just for the LOC approach or for both LOC and ILS?

If that's the case, then why would the KECP ILS or LOC/DME RWY 16 mention DME required TWICE-in the notes and in the plan view !  There'd be no need if mentioning DME in the title covered it.

 

You're right joegoersch - the approach title doesn't say ILS/DME or LOC/DME. But the approach title only tells us what equipment is required to fly the final approach course and nothing more. So its telling us you can fly final with ILS only or LOC with DME. So we technically don't need DME to fly the ILS. But again that's only specifying the final leg required equipment and does not include equipment requirements to fly transitions nor missed approaches. Any additional  equipment that is required for a transition shouldl be noted in the notes section or plan view; except VOR nav is never listed, but ADF or DME will be. Sometimes there is no transition course at all, in which case the plan view will say RADAR REQUIRED since you'll need to be vectored to the ILS. If DME is required for the missed it should be listed in the notes section. Since it's not in this case I'd expect there is either an alternative missed approach that you can ask the controller for or this chart is simply non-conforming. Either way, assuming this is local to you, I'd call the Boston center and verify but I'd bet they have an alternate missed without DME (even though its not plotted for when RUT goes out of service) or can provide vectors.

 

[epsalant]

You're right joegoersch - the approach title doesn't say ILS/DME or LOC/DME. But the approach title only tells us what equipment is required to fly the final approach course and nothing more. So its telling us you can fly final with ILS only or LOC with DME. So we technically don't need DME to fly the ILS. But again that's only specifying the final leg required equipment and does not include equipment requirements to fly transitions nor missed approaches. Any additional  equipment that is required for a transition shouldl be noted in the notes section or plan view; except VOR nav is never listed, but ADF or DME will be. Sometimes there is no transition course at all, in which case the plan view will say RADAR REQUIRED since you'll need to be vectored to the ILS. If DME is required for the missed it should be listed in the notes section. Since it's not in this case I'd expect there is either an alternative missed approach that you can ask the controller for or this chart is simply non-conforming. Either way, assuming this is local to you, I'd call the Boston center and verify but I'd bet they have an alternate missed without DME (even though its not plotted for when RUT goes out of service) or can provide vectors.
 

Better not be without DME or GPS in IMC with lost comms and have to go missed...

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

[kortopates]

2 minutes ago, epsalant said:

Better not be without DME or GPS in IMC with lost comms and have to go missed...

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
 

Certainly, and better to request the alternate missed approach procedure before accepting the clearance. And if lost comm before being cleared for the approach, pick one you have the equipment to fly.

[joegoersch]

kortopates has it right.  From the Instrument Procedures Handbook Chapter 4 https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/instrument_procedures_handbook/media/Chapter_4.pdf

Approach Chart Naming Conventions
Individual FAA charts are identified on both the top and
bottom of the page by their procedure name (based on the
NAVAIDs required for the final approach), runway served,
and airport location. The identifier for the airport is also
listed immediately after the airport name. [Figure 4-4]

However, it seems like the RUT chart is messed up and missing notes in note section saying DME required because it also says

 

When radar or other equipment is required on portions of the procedure outside the final approach segment, including the missed approach, a note is charted in the notes box of the pilot briefing portion of the approach chart (for example, RADAR REQUIRED or DISTANCE MEASURING EQUIPMENT (DME) REQUIRED).