Ramp checked...

[chrisk]

4 hours ago, Yetti said:

Were they Customs and Border?  Had you been anywhere within 250 miles of the border?  If so the CBP is within their jurisdiction to ask questions. Google maps says Las Cruses is 34 miles from the border.  The CBP kind of has a right to inspect.  https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/176/~/cbp-search-authority

Just because CBP says so, does not make it so.  Most of the US population lives within 250 miles of a border (land or sea).  

[M20F]

3 minutes ago, cujet said:

A recent case with a King Air clearly illustrates this. DHS confiscated the aircraft, charged the pilot with nothing and it took eon's to get the aircraft returned to the owner.

Can you share a link to the story?

[Andy95W]

I'll start by saying that a lot of you will consider me naïve and willing to let Big Brother/Big Government trash the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.  I'm not. (Although I might be naïve.)

But it also seems like instead of Big Guv'mint it was really just a couple of decent, hard-working American civil servants just doing their jobs by spot-checking an airplane that had been flying near the Mexican border and was on the ground just 34 miles from that border.  They were decent and professional, Paul had nothing to hide, and he made their day easier by just letting them glance around his airplane.  They were probably grateful that Paul made it easy for them to close out their paperwork.

It would be a very different story if I was carrying passengers who weren't family members or if the agents were threatening or tried to coerce me in any way.

[kerry]

4 hours ago, cujet said:

Just remember, you have nothing to gain by allowing a search. All you've done is introduce significant risk. However, you have much to lose, including your aircraft. A recent case with a King Air clearly illustrates this. DHS confiscated the aircraft, charged the pilot with nothing and it took eon's to get the aircraft returned to the owner.

We regularly fly to the shooting range. Carrying weapons, all properly stored and 100% legal. That's another unneeded hassle with likely confiscation.

Are airplanes the same as cars when carrying weapons.  I know its not a problem in Nevada but California is a different story.  California your ammo or gun have to be separated by a lock box or the trunk of your car. 

[ArtVandelay]

They are going to get some practice on obtaining a warrant and being videoed with a phone if/when this occurs to me...

If you say no, don't,can't they hold you until they get the warrant? Or they can just get a dog to false indicate? Not sure what I would do, might depend on their attitude or my mood.

[Hank]

3 hours ago, kerry said:

Are airplanes the same as cars when carrying weapons.  I know its not a problem in Nevada but California is a different story.  California your ammo or gun have to be separated by a lock box or the trunk of your car. 

I don't know about your Mooney, but mine has no separate, lockable storage compartment . . . I think what you do depends on the laws of the state(s) that you land in, on purpose or by diversion.

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

I don't know about your Mooney, but mine has no separate, lockable storage compartment . . . I think what you do depends on the laws of the state(s) that you land in, on purpose or by diversion.

I think that the law states that that ammo and firearms must be locked in separate cases. While your trunk can serve as a locked case, you can also use a locked "Pelican" type case. It's poorly written legislation designed to aggravate law abiding gun owners. It does nothing to increase safety.

[N601RX]

I believe the search laws are different if you are near the border.  There is a federal exception that allows the search of cars, trains, airplanes ect without a warrant within a certain distance of the border .

[DXB]

Thanks for posting- it does help us to think through this this type of stop in advance of it happening.  I can hardly fault any member here for complying (or not complying within their rights) with a DHS search request. I probably wouldn't comply but agree it may be the quickest and most pragmatic thing to do in many circumstances.  Law enforcement practices this type of interaction all day every day, but it's a very rare event for most of us, so they decidedly have the upper hand at the outset. Though it sounds like these officers were perfectly reasonable and professional, we all are vulnerable to the human tendency to abuse power that's innate to that kind of job. 

[TWinter]

Everyone will have a opinion either for or against these stops, but doesn't it really go beyond the inconvenience of the search or the feeling that your rights are being violated...Granted we have nothing to hide, but maybe it's the next search right after you that is conducted that reveals the illegal weapons that are sold on the streets that could kill that grocery store owner in your neighborhood, the handgun that makes it's way into a kid's backpack at school or the drugs that get filtered down to your local elementary school just a block over. If a ten minute stop and search in a professional manner prevents any of the above I don't understand why we would object. I'm all about our rights..But coming from a LEO background I can promise you that you would be very surprised at the amount of contraband that is moving throughout our infrastructure both on the ground and in the air. I probably won't post on this thread again..we've hashed this stuff out before, but I think it goes beyond the stop and our rights. If ten minutes out of my schedule will prevent a tragedy like what we've seen lately in the news..well, I'll comply and be on my way.

 

-Tom

[steingar]

1 minute ago, TWinter said:

But coming from a LEO background I can promise you that you would be very surprised at the amount of contraband that is moving throughout our infrastructure both on the ground and in the air. I probably won't post on this thread again..we've hashed this stuff out before, but I think it goes beyond the stop and our rights. If ten minutes out of my schedule will prevent a tragedy like what we've seen lately in the news..well, I'll comply and be on my way.

The stuff is only contraband because we label it as such.  Our war against it has destroyed our freedoms and destabilized neighboring democracies.  And one can still get any manner of contraband substances just about anywhere.

I will never give consent for a search absent a visible court-ordered warrant.  We have them for a reason.  That said, I would never be anything but respectful and courteous, these guys are trying to do a job.  And i would never interfere with them doing that job, though I would likely film them doing the job.  

[M20F]

1 minute ago, TWinter said:

I think it goes beyond the stop and our rights. If ten minutes out of my schedule will prevent a tragedy like what we've seen lately in the news..well, I'll comply and be on my way.

Unfortunately in my opinion we have become more focused on our individual rights as opposed to our obligations as citizens (both in the US and abroad).

[Mooneymite]

16 minutes ago, M20F said:

Unfortunately in my opinion we have become more focused on our individual rights as opposed to our obligations as citizens (both in the US and abroad).

I have no idea what your age, or policitcal perspective is, but in my short 67 years, I'd say exactly the opposite.

Our individual rights have been continually subjugated to society at large.  I suspect this is mostly a product of moving from an agrarian base to an urban base.  As individuals we seems to depend more and more on government/society to fix things in our lives and less on our individual effort.

I won't pass judgement as to whether this is good, bad, or indifferent, but my observation is that our individual rights are slowly, continuously erroded by an ever growing governmental over-reach.

Edited February 10, 2016 by Mooneymite

[rbridges]

11 hours ago, N1395W said:

I'll start by saying that a lot of you will consider me naïve and willing to let Big Brother/Big Government trash the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.  I'm not. (Although I might be naïve.)

But it also seems like instead of Big Guv'mint it was really just a couple of decent, hard-working American civil servants just doing their jobs by spot-checking an airplane that had been flying near the Mexican border and was on the ground just 34 miles from that border.  They were decent and professional, Paul had nothing to hide, and he made their day easier by just letting them glance around his airplane.  They were probably grateful that Paul made it easy for them to close out their paperwork.

It would be a very different story if I was carrying passengers who weren't family members or if the agents were threatening or tried to coerce me in any way.

that's probably the way it's supposed to work, but introduce a wannabe lawyer civilian or butthead law enforcement, things start getting out of hand.

[rbridges]

2 hours ago, Shadrach said:

I think that the law states that that ammo and firearms must be locked in separate cases. While your trunk can serve as a locked case, you can also use a locked "Pelican" type case. It's poorly written legislation designed to aggravate law abiding gun owners. It does nothing to increase safety.

I disagree.  Having to store my ammo separately from my firearms would definitely keep me from going on a shooting rampage.  

[TWinter]

All well and good, but again..In my short 52 yrs of life, most laws have become more stringent. Have we lost some of our freedom? You bet, however, has crime increased or decreased in the US requiring laws to become more stringent. Increased for sure. Example, Memphis news reported last night. We have had 26 homicides since January 1 this year. It has increased every year.  Flying much like driving, it is a privilege we've earned by following rules. If we don't like the rules, we don't drive or fly.

This is a forum for discussion. We won't all agree, but that's why we keep coming back. We all have a separate individual backgrounds and will view things differently.  

My point was simply this. I'm glad the OP cooperated in the 10-15 minute scope and did not hang on his telephone for 30 minutes calling 1-800-AOPA legal services or his lawyer and ask what he should do. If he had done that and turned a routine 10 minute check into a full 20-30 minutes of arguing with extra dialog, meanwhile the real "Mr. Badguy" just landed, saw you and authority debating your rights. He has now refueled and is on his way to your neighborhood to sell the drugs and guns to your local thug. It might not be right, it might be intrusive to some, but it is what it is. If a 10 minute stop is over and done, then there is another 20 minutes the authorities can be looking for the real bad guys. Might have gotten the bad guy that just landed and refueled in that extra 20 minutes. Crime and evil is on the way up folks

I'll close out and say this. Some will think, well, he is a retired LEO. He only sees it with his "Thin Blue Line" perspective. I've been out of LEO for almost 15 yrs. Since being out of law enforcement I've been stopped and dealt with some police that were pricks and badge heavy. There will always be some of these individuals no matter what the profession..That's just life. I roll with it and will always try to see things as half full.

I'm out..

 

-Tom 

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, TWinter said:

Everyone will have a opinion either for or against these stops, but doesn't it really go beyond the inconvenience of the search or the feeling that your rights are being violated...Granted we have nothing to hide, but maybe it's the next search right after you that is conducted that reveals the illegal weapons that are sold on the streets that could kill that grocery store owner in your neighborhood, the handgun that makes it's way into a kid's backpack at school or the drugs that get filtered down to your local elementary school just a block over. If a ten minute stop and search in a professional manner prevents any of the above I don't understand why we would object. I'm all about our rights..But coming from a LEO background I can promise you that you would be very surprised at the amount of contraband that is moving throughout our infrastructure both on the ground and in the air. I probably won't post on this thread again..we've hashed this stuff out before, but I think it goes beyond the stop and our rights. If ten minutes out of my schedule will prevent a tragedy like what we've seen lately in the news..well, I'll comply and be on my way.

 

-Tom

Coming from a LEO background you likely have enjoyed immunity from laws that inconvenience you.  Things like speed limits, hands free cell phone requirements, red lights... Or perhaps you come from a much more dignified group than we have here in my state.  I was the victim of a state police officer that was willing to perjure himself to get a speeding ticket conviction (his integrity came cheap).  And then there are all manner of LEOs flying down the road at triple digit speeds on the cell phones often out of uniform, or flipping on the light bar to run a red light. Years ago, I was rear ended by a Rookie cop that forgot to put her car in park when she stopped me. Another officer showed up and tried to intimidate me into admitting that I had drifted back into her. Had I not had a witness, I assure they'd have faulted me and I would have been on the hook for repairs.  I would never let an untrained DHS officer touch my aircraft. If something was accidentally broken, do you think they'd accept responsibility?

Name one attack that DHS has foiled? I prefer to keep the security theatre as far from me as possible.  Don't take it personally Tom, it's just that I have been subjected to more injustices (however minor) by people with badges than by private citizens. The thing that pisses me off about ex LEOs lecturing me about the good work they do is that they are either blind  or apathetic to the D-bags within their ranks. When that happens, you get what we have in MD.  A State Police Dept full of huge egos that think they own the highway and can do with it as they please when they're not busy extracting revenue from the citizenry. Im not saying there aren't good cops here, but they are not swaying the culture of the organization.  In MD one of the requirements for state police is that you have no "current" domestic violence charges pending - cream of the crop...

[chrisk]

47 minutes ago, TWinter said:

All well and good, but again..In my short 52 yrs of life, most laws have become more stringent. Have we lost some of our freedom? You bet, however, has crime increased or decreased in the US requiring laws to become more stringent. Increased for sure. Example, Memphis news reported last night. We have had 26 homicides since January 1 this year. It has increased every year.  Flying much like driving, it is a privilege we've earned by following rules. If we don't like the rules, we don't drive or fly.

This is a forum for discussion. We won't all agree, but that's why we keep coming back. We all have a separate individual backgrounds and will view things differently.  

My point was simply this. I'm glad the OP cooperated in the 10-15 minute scope and did not hang on his telephone for 30 minutes calling 1-800-AOPA legal services or his lawyer and ask what he should do. If he had done that and turned a routine 10 minute check into a full 20-30 minutes of arguing with extra dialog, meanwhile the real "Mr. Badguy" just landed, saw you and authority debating your rights. He has now refueled and is on his way to your neighborhood to sell the drugs and guns to your local thug. It might not be right, it might be intrusive to some, but it is what it is. If a 10 minute stop is over and done, then there is another 20 minutes the authorities can be looking for the real bad guys. Might have gotten the bad guy that just landed and refueled in that extra 20 minutes. Crime and evil is on the way up folks

I'll close out and say this. Some will think, well, he is a retired LEO. He only sees it with his "Thin Blue Line" perspective. I've been out of LEO for almost 15 yrs. Since being out of law enforcement I've been stopped and dealt with some police that were pricks and badge heavy. There will always be some of these individuals no matter what the profession..That's just life. I roll with it and will always try to see things as half full.

I'm out..

 

-Tom 

 

Maybe they should have been more selective in who they stopped, then they really could be stopping the real "Mr. Badguy".  There was no evidence of a crime,or even the hint of one.  It was a fishing expedition.  It's the definition of a random search. Make no mistake about it.  The entire reason the OP was "ramp checked" was for an opportunity to look inside his plane.  They had no idea what they were looking for. 

 

 

 

 

[gsxrpilot]

During and after the event, the thought crossed my mind, that maybe this was a training exercise for a new agent. One guy did all the talking and initially asked for Pilot Cert, picture ID and Rego on the plane. After looking at those, he then remembered to ask for my medical. 

I never saw them drive up. They just walked into the FBO about 2 or 3 minutes behind me. After it was over, they left, went right to a big black suburban with govt plates and drove off. They were gone before I'd even paid for my fuel.

Call me what you like, but I'm not one to put up a fight. I feel very fortunate that I don't have to do what they do. And not to be an ass, but I think they'd rather do what I do for a living and be able to own an airplane. They were very polite and so was I. 

BTW... I did provide my Global Entry card as picture ID. They didn't know what it was, so I explained that it signified I was pre-screened and cleared by Customs/Boarder Protection/TSA, etc. They seemed interested and accepted it as picture ID. I never showed them a DL.

[TWinter]

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

Coming from a LEO background you likely have enjoyed immunity from laws that inconvenience you.  Things like speed limits, hands free cell phone requirements, red lights... Or perhaps you come from a much more dignified group than we have here in my state.  I was the victim of a state police officer that was willing to perjure himself to get a speeding ticket conviction (his integrity came cheap).  And then there are all manner of LEOs flying down the road at triple digit speeds on the cell phones often out of uniform, or flipping on the light bar to run a red light. Years ago, I was rear ended by a Rookie cop that forgot to put her car in park when she stopped me. Another officer showed up and tried to intimidate me into admitting that I had drifted back into her. Had I not had a witness, I assure they'd have faulted me and I would have been on the hook for repairs.  I would never let an untrained DHS officer touch my aircraft. If something was accidentally broken, do you think they'd accept responsibility?

Name one attack that DHS has foiled? I prefer to keep the security theatre as far from me as possible.  Don't take it personally Tom, it's just that I have been subjected to more injustices (however minor) by people with badges than by private citizens. The thing that pisses me off about ex LEOs lecturing me about the good work they do is that they are either blind  or apathetic to the D-bags within their ranks. When that happens, you get what we have in MD.  A State Police Dept full of huge egos that think they own the highway and can do with it as they please when they're not busy extracting revenue from the citizenry. Im not saying there aren't good cops here, but they are not swaying the culture of the organization.  In MD one of the requirements for state police is that you have no "current" domestic violence charges pending - cream of the crop...

But, there is good and bad in every profession. I once had a home contractor tell me I need a whole new foundation because there was evidence of wet foundation area just prior to selling my home as part of a pre-buy home inspection, The contractor thought he had me over a barrel because I needed his sign-off for the sale to go through. When in fact I needed a leaking pipe repaired, not a whole new foundation. His 2-3K estimate was fixed by a reputable contractor for $225.  I've had work done vehicles that required minimal repair, but the shop said I needed a whole new frontend. We could all go on and on. I don't label every contractor or every mechanic as out to get me There are bad apples in EVERY profession. Have we ever heard of firefighters committing  arson, teachers have inappropriate relationships with students?.  It's just when it comes to authority the magnifying glass is always stronger.

As far as hearing about attacks that were stopped or foiled..They are typically followed-up with additional investigation and may actually continue for years to follow. The media finds it much more entertaining and higher ratings when it's bad news or news of inappropriate behavior. Reporting good stuff is not nearly as sensational. I'm not trying to lecture anybody about anything. I'm just telling from my point of view.. We won't change the system..We have to work with what we have taking the good with the bad. Allow them to search or don't.  You are right, It's YOUR RIGHT..That;s all.

 

-Tom

[Shadrach]

6 hours ago, TWinter said:

But, there is good and bad in every profession. I once had a home contractor tell me I need a whole new foundation because there was evidence of wet foundation area just prior to selling my home as part of a pre-buy home inspection, The contractor thought he had me over a barrel because I needed his sign-off for the sale to go through. When in fact I needed a leaking pipe repaired, not a whole new foundation. His 2-3K estimate was fixed by a reputable contractor for $225.  I've had work done vehicles that required minimal repair, but the shop said I needed a whole new frontend. We could all go on and on. I don't label every contractor or every mechanic as out to get me There are bad apples in EVERY profession. Have we ever heard of firefighters committing  arson, teachers have inappropriate relationships with students?.  It's just when it comes to authority the magnifying glass is always stronger.

As far as hearing about attacks that were stopped or foiled..They are typically followed-up with additional investigation and may actually continue for years to follow. The media finds it much more entertaining and higher ratings when it's bad news or news of inappropriate behavior. Reporting good stuff is not nearly as sensational. I'm not trying to lecture anybody about anything. I'm just telling from my point of view.. We won't change the system..We have to work with what we have taking the good with the bad. Allow them to search or don't.  You are right, It's YOUR RIGHT..That;s all.

 

-Tom

The differences Tom, between LE and private interactions are many.  I can choose a different class or a different contractor; I can tell them to vacate my property immediately.  I can vote with my wallet and I can be vocal about my experiences (as I am here).  A one on one encounter with a dirty LEO is the worst thing that can happen to an individual. It requires 2 private citizens or a camera (or both) to counter the testimony of one LEO. If you don't see that there is a significant difference between an interaction with a crooked business person vs tax payer supported, agent of the state with a badge and gun, then perhaps things are more bleak than even I had thought...  The reason we need good cops to police bad cops is because no one else can.

No one touches my property without a warrant or probable cause.

[rbridges]

When they asked to search, did they tell you they were simply going to look through the baggage compartment, or did they ask if they could search your plane?  IMO looking through the baggage door isn't much more than looking through the windows.  

[gsxrpilot]

51 minutes ago, rbridges said:

When they asked to search, did they tell you they were simply going to look through the baggage compartment, or did they ask if they could search your plane?  IMO looking through the baggage door isn't much more than looking through the windows.  

They asked if they could "take a look in the plane?" This was after they asked about weapons or drugs. I asked how long it would take and they replied it would be just a couple of minutes. They also didn't have a dog with them. I would have been much less likely to consent willingly to a dog climbing through the plane.

As it was, they looked in the baggage door and asked about my duffel which I then removed from the plane and offered to them. They never got in the plane or even up on the wing walk.

[Deb]

On February 10, 2016 at 10:55 PM, M20F said:

Can you share a link to the story?

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/business-aviation/2015-12-23/cbp-returns-seized-king-air-questions-persist

Beechtalk thread:

http://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=118275

[CCowboy]

We drive to southern AZ a few times a year to check on our retired horses that are out to pasture.  Just north of where the pasture is is a CBP checkpoint on I-19 about 20 miles north of the Mexico border.  There is significant technology there, facial recognition cameras going both directions.  You must stop, they do a brief interview while looking into your vehicle and the drug sniffing puppy dog checks out the car.  It has never been an issue for us, but this shows the power of CBP to "search" you without probable cause.  What happened to Paul is the air side analogy to this checkpoint.   I am not saying this is right or wrong, just a sign of the times we live in.