Avoiding vertigo on instrument approaches

[cnoe]

While discussing various iPad mounts in another thread the subject of avoiding vertigo on approaches came up. The wisdom is that by keeping your head out of your lap you will minimize related vertigo issues. I agree with that... but...

When lowering my gear I like to double-check it's "down-and-locked" by first looking at the annunciator, then by confirming on the mechanical floor indicator as well.

Though it's never been a problem I wonder if looking down to the floor indicator might increase my overall risk (due to possible vertigo) on the approach rather than just trusting the annunciator alone.

What are your opinions on this?

[Hank]

I do the same floor check, usually on short final. By then vertigo shouldn't be a problem.

It's good during training if you can get some spatial disorientation with your CFII. Happened to me once, making a turn at cruise speed. We fell right out the bottom of the clouds and right there were the hills! Rolled level, climbed back up, got on course and we later discussed the event. Then you'll know what happened and what to expect.

Since then, one more little issue leveling off inside the clouds when I was expecting to climb through them. By then, I had a well-developed scan, but it still felt like I was in a descending left turn. Coriolis effect from climbing to 10K then leveling off in the clouds (bases were ~9500, higher than tops were forecast to be). Trust your instruments, they are more accurate than your head. The horrible feeling went away in just a couple of minutes.

[carusoam]

Option: practice before you have to do it for real...

 

It's an inner ear (balance related) challenge. Moving your head without seeing a nice horizon can give dizzying signals to the brain. Similar to issues causing sea-sickness.

Minimizing head motion often minimizes the causes of vertigo.  But you can't skip looking for the gear on the floor.

Another thing is some people get used to these things over time.  It may help to get used to doing these things in VMC first.  When you know it works in VMC expand your envelope gradually.

Minimizing head movements is typically looking straight ahead with air blowing in your face. Unfortunately stress starts to build while you are doing this routine. Fear of getting air sick causes enough stress to get off your game.

practice, practice, practice in VMC. If you don't get sick doing the same routine in VMC that is a good way to start.  It helps being comfortable in IMC.

Blowing chow is essentially a biological response the body gives when it thinks it is being poisoned.  Really primal response...  One way to avoid or minimize the poison response... Don't eat before getting in the plane. 

 

If you really want to kick up the poison response.... (Try this while the spouse drives the car)

Preparation...

  Skip the normal sleep routine.

  Eat greasy spicy food til your stomache is churning.

Get in the car..

  turn the vents off.

  Put a book/iPad in your lap and read it.

Start a timer and see how long you can last before you have to look up or turn the vent on.

 

Yes, I used to read head down in the car to see if flying in IMC would be a problem for me.  Mostly to demonstrate to family that I was not going to get sick while flying in IMC.  Mostly not an issue until the road gets bouncy, curvy and hot...

Non-flying family members will stay non flying family members if I get sick while they are going with me.

Have a good plan B that they don't have to see or smell for very long. The group response is similar to the poison response...ever see what happens on a school bus when one kid gets sick on a field trip?

 

Weird experiences of an engineer with a biology background.

Best regards,

-a-

 

 

 

[carusoam]

As Hank points out...

For most pilots...  It becomes really easy to trust the instruments.  They provide the same horizon that the brain really likes to see.

When you have to look down, do it knowingly. Then look back to the AI in your scan.

If you have difficulty trusting the instruments.  That is going to take longer and more practice. It is really easy for engineers that use instruments all day....

Best regards,

-a-

[Hank]

Maybe I have less of a problem with it, since I grew up as a nomad, a child of the Interstate, reading in the back seat during marathon drives from Marine bases in nowhere back to Atlanta to see the grandparents.

Checking the floor indicator has long been a practice in the Mooney. I think I started doing it shortly after purchase in '07. Drop gear on downwind, feel thud, check green light; turn base, check green light; turn final, touch gear knob, check floor indicator; land. In instrument training, it became Drop gear to initiate descent 1-1/2 dots above glideslope; keep IAS at 105 mph; pitch for speed, power for altitude; break out; somewhere on short final, touch the gear lever and check floor indicator, sliding the approach plate book(s) out of the way.

The important thing is to establish a habit pattern that works for you, just like you develop and establish your instrument scan. I found that my scan carries over into VFR flying too, but with greatly reduced frequency. I'm usually a more accurate VFR pilot now.  

[N601RX]

Paper charts and plates have always traditionally been in the lap or on pilots yoke.   How is the iPad different?

[cnoe]

Since going from the Johnson bar to an electric gear a couple of years ago the logbook says I've made 294 landings. IIRC I've looked at the floor (indicator) on every one and have never felt any disorientation.

I just wanted to see if others found it an area of concern. Thanks for the input.

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[kevinw]

There is another school of thought that disagrees with the floor indicator check. The obvious reason is what you brought up, vertigo. I was taught, perhaps wrong, to follow the gear indicator unless the the green gear down light doesn't illuminate and/or the gear unsafe light is on. If that happens then check the floor indicator. I'm not advising my procedure, just passing on how I was trained to do it; to keep the head up to avoid vertigo.

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[flyboy0681]

As I pull the gear switch down I instantly turn to the floor first, That way I can watch to see if the indicator light illuminates the green flag in the window. If it's already illuminated it's difficult to tell if its on. Once I see green on the floor I confirm with the annunciator panel. I've continued to use this method throughout my instrument training and not once experienced vertigo.

Edited February 6, 2016 by flyboy0681

[kevinw]

I would sure like to know from a Mooney CFI, perhaps our friend Don Kaye, or an A&P if what I was told is true. That if the gear down indicator light is on, gear is down and locked. If not, it doesn't necessarily mean it's not, but now it has to be checked with the floor indicator as it trumps the panel light and indicates to the pilot for sure if it's down or not. I've only owned a Mooney for about three years so I'm fairly new to the systems and would like to know if this is correct or not.

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[Guitarmaster]

1 hour ago, kevinw said:

I would sure like to know from a Mooney CFI, perhaps our friend Don Kaye, or an A&P if what I was told is true. That if the gear down indicator light is on, gear is down and locked. If not, it doesn't necessarily mean it's not, but now it has to be checked with the floor indicator as it trumps the panel light and indicates to the pilot for sure if it's down or not. I've only owned a Mooney for about three years so I'm fairly new to the systems and would like to know if this is correct or not.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hi Kevin.  I'm not an A&P but I do know the systems.

When the gear goes from up to down and reaches the limit, it depresses the down limit switch.  The down limit switch is a dual-pole switch.  One side is NO and the other is NC.  As luck would have it, I can also tell you that particular switch costs $210 from Mouser electronics!  The NC side opens when the limit is reached and stops the current to the motor and the motor travels slightly more and the gear goes overcenter.  The NO side closes and illuminates the light.  So yes, The gear CAN be down without the green light as long as the floor indication indicates that it is.  Of course, if you have this, there is a problem in the system somewhere.  
I believe Mooney says the floor indication is primary and the green light is secondary.  Not sure where I heard that, but it makes sense.   
I look at it like this... the system is pretty fool-proof.  The only way for the light it illuminate (outside of an internal fault with the switch) is to depress the down limit switch.  I am comfortable using just the light for gear-down confirmation.

 

Edited February 6, 2016 by Guitarmaster

[kevinw]

1 hour ago, kevinw said: I would sure like to know from a Mooney CFI, perhaps our friend Don Kaye, or an A&P if what I was told is true. That if the gear down indicator light is on, gear is down and locked. If not, it doesn't necessarily mean it's not, but now it has to be checked with the floor indicator as it trumps the panel light and indicates to the pilot for sure if it's down or not. I've only owned a Mooney for about three years so I'm fairly new to the systems and would like to know if this is correct or not.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hi Kevin.  I'm not an A&P but I do know the systems.

When the gear goes from up to down and reaches the limit, it depresses the down limit switch.  The down limit switch is a dual-pole switch.  One side is NO and the other is NC.  As luck would have it, I can also tell you that particular switch costs $210 from Mouser electronics!  The NC side opens when the limit is reached and stops the current to the motor and the motor travels slightly more and the gear goes overcenter.  The NO side closes and illuminates the light.  So yes, The gear CAN be down without the green light as long as the floor indication indicates that it is.  Of course, if you have this, there is a problem in the system somewhere.  

I believe Mooney says the floor indication is primary and the green light is secondary.  Not sure where I heard that, but it makes sense.   

I look at it like this... the system is pretty fool-proof.  The only way for the light it illuminate (outside of an internal fault with the switch) is to depress the down limit switch.  I am comfortable using just the light for gear-down confirmation.

 

Thanks for sharing your expertise. This is great info to keep in mind. Always heard how great the Mooney gear system was just didn't know the details as explained. Much appreciated.

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[carusoam]

The green light(s) on the panel may not always be visible in day light.

1) if you have the twist irises you are bound to mis-set them sooner or later.  You will quickly check the floor position or the Jbar.

2) if you have the message panel.  The green light May be too dim if you have the Nav lights on. You will quickly check the floor position.

Best regards,

-a-

[ArtVandelay]

The green light(s) on the panel may not always be visible in day light.

1) if you have the twist irises you are bound to mis-set them sooner or later.  You will quickly check the floor position or the Jbar.

2) if you have the message panel.  The green light May be too dim if you have the Nav lights on. You will quickly check the floor position.

Best regards,

-a-

My panel light is visible, but it's not green, it's white.

The floor indicator light is always failing and then it's very hard to read without the light, the plastic cover is somewhat opaque after years of being stepped on.

[Guest]

The limit switches control the motor relays which power the motor, they also operate the lights.  It is possible to have the switches  adjusted correctly yet have have the mechanical system adjusted in correctly with too little over centre pressure which can lead to gear collapse.  

Clarence

[midlifeflyer]

Personally, I like a yoke mount because it allows the tablet to be part of my normal scan. I also liked paper approach plates to be on a yoke clip for the same reason.

But they don't have to be. Yes, things on laps "might" lead to vertigo. So can checking the gear, tuning radios, and a bunch of other cockpit tasks that require one to look away or down to the side.

It's not only about looking down or away. It's mostly about the speed of head movement that winds up sloshing liquid in the semicircular canals, giving a false sensation of movement. That's what head movement in the cockpit needs to be slow and intentional.

That's probably why many pilots like those things that will be referenced regularly and quickly during a phase of flight (like an approach plate) on a yoke clip. It's to avoid the natural tendency to quick glance down with the head movement that can cause the sloshing. For others, it's not that big a deal.

 

[Marauder]

Personally, I like a yoke mount because it allows the tablet to be part of my normal scan. I also liked paper approach plates to be on a yoke clip for the same reason.

But they don't have to be. Yes, things on laps "might" lead to vertigo. So can checking the gear, tuning radios, and a bunch of other cockpit tasks that require one to look away or down to the side.

It's not only about looking down or away. It's mostly about the speed of head movement that winds up sloshing liquid in the semicircular canals, giving a false sensation of movement. That's what head movement in the cockpit needs to be slow and intentional.

That's probably why many pilots like those things that will be referenced regularly and quickly during a phase of flight (like an approach plate) on a yoke clip. It's to avoid the natural tendency to quick glance down with the head movement that can cause the sloshing. For others, it's not that big a deal.

 

Like midlife said, it is the head orientation. If you want to see the real deal without doing it in an airplane, see if you can find a resource that has access to a Bárány chair. It really demonstrates the possibilities of what the inner can do to create vertigo.

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[midlifeflyer]

1 hour ago, Marauder said:

Like midlife said, it is the head orientation. If you want to see the real deal without doing it in an airplane, see if you can find a resource that has access to a Bárány chair. It really demonstrates the possibilities of what the inner can do to create vertigo.

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Don't even need a Bárány chair. The demonstration can be done with a revolving barstool and a broomstick. 

[N33GG]

We can discuss and analyze vertigo and it's causes until the cows come home.  We can minimize it, and yes, head movement and inner ear is what it is all about.  Try to minimize the onset best you can.  If you think you need to look down, then by all means, look down!  The fact is, vertigo can set in at any time, and we need to be ready regardless of when or why.  Trust the instruments, cross check to make sure nothing is wrong with the instruments, and ignore the false signals from your brain telling you to do otherwise.  Fly the airplane according to the instruments.

Edited February 7, 2016 by N33GG

[Andy95W]

42 minutes ago, N33GG said:

Trust the instruments, cross check to make sure nothing is wrong with the instruments, and ignore the false signals from your brain telling you to do otherwise.  Fly the airplane according to the instruments.

Gee, that really makes it sound so easy!

[N33GG]

12 hours ago, N1395W said:

Gee, that really makes it sound so easy!

After enough experience, it is.

[Andy95W]

20 minutes ago, N33GG said:

After enough experience, it is.

Sorry, I was being sarcastic and I probably should have tried to find an eye-rolling imogee.  You were stating the obvious using a simple statement that is not so simple to put into practice.

But yes, I agree it becomes easier over time with practice.

[MB65E]

I think it's a mind over matter situation. I once was turned around on a climbing departure procedure. I leveled off and noticed I was drifting on the DG. Told my self to knock it off or I would be dead. That solved it for me. But the issue is noticing the error, before it really messes with you. 

I like to look for movement of the gear by looking on the floor first. Then checking the light. A lot can be learned from the realitive motion of the gear vs just looking for a light. 

And, Anthony... Geez, I think that would make anyone sick! I can still do everything in an aerobatic airplane I can think of with out loosing it. However, I'll jump on the girls glider in the back yard with them and only do about 10 swings... I'm done! Lol.

Best,

-Matt

[midlifeflyer]

1 hour ago, N1395W said:

Sorry, I was being sarcastic and I probably should have tried to find an eye-rolling imogee.  You were stating the obvious using a simple statement that is not so simple to put into practice.

But yes, I agree it becomes easier over time with practice.

It is simple to put into practice. As simple as learning how to land. His point is that it is a matter of training experience and the goal of the earliest phase of instrument training. 

[M20F]

17 hours ago, N33GG said:

We can discuss and analyze vertigo and it's causes until the cows come home.  We can minimize it, and yes, head movement and inner ear is what it is all about.  Try to minimize the onset best you can.  If you think you need to look down, then by all means, look down!  The fact is, vertigo can set in at any time, and we need to be ready regardless of when or why.  Trust the instruments, cross check to make sure nothing is wrong with the instruments, and ignore the false signals from your brain telling you to do otherwise.  Fly the airplane according to the instruments.

+1 to this.  Vertigo can come from a variety of things and at some point we all experience it.