Garmin GTN Software v6.x Gotcha

[Bob - S50]

There is a change coming in the next version of the GTN software that is a potential gotcha that could get you violated if you aren't aware.

Our GTN650 is several versions behind.  Since the next version that comes out (now saying it will be February) allows us to build a holding pattern at any fix, I think I can convince my partners to pay to have the update installed.  With that in mind I've been playing with the v6.0 simulator and reading the pilot guide and have discovered a change that could get me violated if I'm not careful.

It has been my practice, that if I know what runway is in use, I'll load the approach well in advance but not activate it.  I do that because I prefer to do as much in advance when there is nothing going on rather than wait until the last minute when things are getting busy.  The new version loads the approach sequence differently.  Here is an example of the change.

Say I'm flying from my home field of Auburn, WA (S50) to Port Angeles, WA (KCLM) and I file and get cleared for:

S50 SEA V4 JAWBN KCLM

Enroute I load the RNAV (GPS) RWY 26 approach at KCLM with the JAWBN transition.  With the old software the route would look like this:

S50 SEA LOFAL DIGGN JAWBN KCLM (approach) JAWBN COBUX FAMUV SEBTY RWY26 then the missed approach.

No problem. If they don't clear me for the approach before I get to JAWBN, the GTN wants to take me to KCLM which is my clearance.

With v6.x of the software, when I load the approach, the route looks like this:

S50 SEA LOFAL DIGGN (approach) JAWBN COBUX FAMUV SEBTY RW26 then the missed approach.

If I don't get cleared for the approach before JAWBN, the GTN tries to take me on it anyway.  While in this particular case it is not much of a deviation from the flight direct to KCLM, in other cases there could be a significant difference.  The potential exists for a violation.

What can I do to prevent that?

1.  I can wait until I'm cleared for the approach before I load it.  In which case I might as well activate it at the same time.

2.  Just keep good SA and if I get to JAWBN without a clearance, ask for it or use the D--> key to go direct to KCLM

3.  Manually insert the airport in front of the approach.  This creates another problem.  If I do that, the route looks like this:

S50 LOFAL DIGGN KCLM (approach) JAWBN COBUX FAMUV SEBTY RW26 then the missed approach.

But my clearance is from JAWBN to KCLM not DIGGN to KCLM.  If I try to do this:

S50 LOFAL DIGGN JAWBN (approach) JAWBN COBUX FAMUV SEBTY RW26....

It says invalid entry.  It will not let me load JAWBN because it already sees JAWBN as part of the approach.  However, I can trick it.  If I first load the airport so it goes

...DIGGN KCLM (approach) JAWBN...

It will then let me load JAWBN between DIGGN and KCLM to get:

... DIGGN JAWBN KCLM (approach) JAWBN...

Another change to be aware of concerning loading the approach early.  I'm also in the habit of using the Flight Plan to get airport info.  For example, if I want to look up the ASOS or Tower freq I will push Home, Flightplan, scroll down to and select the airport, then WPT Info, then Freqs.  With the new version, when you load the approach, the airport, in this case KCLM, is not longer in the Flightplan route.  I can't use my method of getting waypoint info for my destination.

Inserting the airport back in as above puts it back where I can find it.  Or, if I'm cleared for the approach, and things are not too busy, I can add KCLM after the last item of the missed approach.

I know there are other ways to get the info but what can I say, Old Dogs....

Forewarned is forearmed.

Bob

[Marauder]

There is a change coming in the next version of the GTN software that is a potential gotcha that could get you violated if you aren't aware.

Our GTN650 is several versions behind.  Since the next version that comes out (now saying it will be February) allows us to build a holding pattern at any fix, I think I can convince my partners to pay to have the update installed.  With that in mind I've been playing with the v6.0 simulator and reading the pilot guide and have discovered a change that could get me violated if I'm not careful.

It has been my practice, that if I know what runway is in use, I'll load the approach well in advance but not activate it.  I do that because I prefer to do as much in advance when there is nothing going on rather than wait until the last minute when things are getting busy.  The new version loads the approach sequence differently.  Here is an example of the change.

Say I'm flying from my home field of Auburn, WA (S50) to Port Angeles, WA (KCLM) and I file and get cleared for:

S50 SEA V4 JAWBN KCLM

Enroute I load the RNAV (GPS) RWY 26 approach at KCLM with the JAWBN transition.  With the old software the route would look like this:

S50 SEA LOFAL DIGGN JAWBN KCLM (approach) JAWBN COBUX FAMUV SEBTY RWY26 then the missed approach.

No problem. If they don't clear me for the approach before I get to JAWBN, the GTN wants to take me to KCLM which is my clearance.

With v6.x of the software, when I load the approach, the route looks like this:

S50 SEA LOFAL DIGGN (approach) JAWBN COBUX FAMUV SEBTY RW26 then the missed approach.

If I don't get cleared for the approach before JAWBN, the GTN tries to take me on it anyway.  While in this particular case it is not much of a deviation from the flight direct to KCLM, in other cases there could be a significant difference.  The potential exists for a violation.

What can I do to prevent that?

1.  I can wait until I'm cleared for the approach before I load it.  In which case I might as well activate it at the same time.

2.  Just keep good SA and if I get to JAWBN without a clearance, ask for it or use the D--> key to go direct to KCLM

3.  Manually insert the airport in front of the approach.  This creates another problem.  If I do that, the route looks like this:

S50 LOFAL DIGGN KCLM (approach) JAWBN COBUX FAMUV SEBTY RW26 then the missed approach.

But my clearance is from JAWBN to KCLM not DIGGN to KCLM.  If I try to do this:

S50 LOFAL DIGGN JAWBN (approach) JAWBN COBUX FAMUV SEBTY RW26....

It says invalid entry.  It will not let me load JAWBN because it already sees JAWBN as part of the approach.  However, I can trick it.  If I first load the airport so it goes

...DIGGN KCLM (approach) JAWBN...

It will then let me load JAWBN between DIGGN and KCLM to get:

... DIGGN JAWBN KCLM (approach) JAWBN...

Another change to be aware of concerning loading the approach early.  I'm also in the habit of using the Flight Plan to get airport info.  For example, if I want to look up the ASOS or Tower freq I will push Home, Flightplan, scroll down to and select the airport, then WPT Info, then Freqs.  With the new version, when you load the approach, the airport, in this case KCLM, is not longer in the Flightplan route.  I can't use my method of getting waypoint info for my destination.

Inserting the airport back in as above puts it back where I can find it.  Or, if I'm cleared for the approach, and things are not too busy, I can add KCLM after the last item of the missed approach.

I know there are other ways to get the info but what can I say, Old Dogs....

Forewarned is forearmed.

Bob

Do you have a copy of the tech summary for this update? I haven't seen one yet. Wonder what other features are being upgraded. I like the freq identifier in the last version.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[flyboy0681]

Where did you obtain version 6 of the simulator?

[Marauder]

Where did you obtain version 6 of the simulator?

App Store.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[flyboy0681]

6 minutes ago, Marauder said:

App Store.

 

Ah, the paid version (which should be free for owners of the units).

[midlifeflyer]

57 minutes ago, flyboy0681 said:

Ah, the paid version (which should be free for owners of the units).

Ah, appears the free PC version may have been updated as well. http://www8.garmin.com/support/download_details.jsp?id=9256

 

[flyboy0681]

Just now, midlifeflyer said:

Ah, appears the free PC version may have been updated as well. http://www8.garmin.com/support/download_details.jsp?id=9256

 

Now we're talking!   

[kortopates]

You are describing what sounds like a bug in that when you just load the approach it is also automatically activating; although perhaps not in the true sense where you are instantly navigating to the first fix on the approach. Still it's "active" even though you have not activated it. That can't be right and sure sounds like a bug. Have you called Garmin tech support yet to confirm? Something sure seems wrong but hopefully it's confined to the simulator or even human error - although I don't doubt you've carefully repeated it to make sure you did it correctly. I'd call if you haven't!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[PTK]

Presumably you would "load" an AP when you are expecting it and at the expected transition or vtf. In this case you'd know this and be cleared well before JAWBN which I assume is an initial approach fix. Certainly by DIGGN. So why not load it ahead of time if you wish and activate it when passing DIGGN.  If for some reason you don't get that approach you can always tap on "approach" in the flight plan and remove it. This will bring back KCLM as your destination. Also notice that in the older vesion there were two choices: "load" and "activate." In the new version the choices are: "load" and "load and activate." So last minute changes are much easier with one button rather than two. I think it's an improvement frankly. 

Bob, unless there's something I have missed, I don't see a problem. 

[Bob_Belville]

5 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

Ah, appears the free PC version may have been updated as well. http://www8.garmin.com/support/download_details.jsp?id=9256

 

Is this the simulator for the 700 series as well as 600?

GTN/GDU 620 PC Trainer software version 6.01.0

[Bob - S50]

16 hours ago, kortopates said:

 

You are describing what sounds like a bug in that when you just load the approach it is also automatically activating; although perhaps not in the true sense where you are instantly navigating to the first fix on the approach. Still it's "active" even though you have not activated it. That can't be right and sure sounds like a bug. Have you called Garmin tech support yet to confirm? Something sure seems wrong but hopefully it's confined to the simulator or even human error - although I don't doubt you've carefully repeated it to make sure you did it correctly. I'd call if you haven't!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don't think it's a bug because the simulator behavior agrees with the manual.  Even though you can't download the manual yet, it is part of the simulator installation.

[Bob - S50]

13 hours ago, PTK said:

Presumably you would "load" an AP when you are expecting it and at the expected transition or vtf. In this case you'd know this and be cleared well before JAWBN which I assume is an initial approach fix. Certainly by DIGGN. So why not load it ahead of time if you wish and activate it when passing DIGGN.  If for some reason you don't get that approach you can always tap on "approach" in the flight plan and remove it. This will bring back KCLM as your destination. Also notice that in the older vesion there were two choices: "load" and "activate." In the new version the choices are: "load" and "load and activate." So last minute changes are much easier with one button rather than two. I think it's an improvement frankly. 

Bob, unless there's something I have missed, I don't see a problem. 

It's not a problem ...if you know about it.  Problem is most people don't bother reading the manual or play with the simulator so for them it could be a problem.  That's why I pointed it out.  As far as I can tell, the only difference between 'load' and 'load and activate' is the load takes you directly from the last fix before your destination to the first fix on the approach while load and activate takes you directly to the first fix on the approach right now.

[Bob - S50]

22 hours ago, Marauder said:

Do you have a copy of the tech summary for this update? I haven't seen one yet. Wonder what other features are being upgraded. I like the freq identifier in the last version.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

No but our software is pretty old so I looked through all the update supplements to find the features that were added.  I have not seen one for v6.0 but I'll list what I've noticed.

Here's what I've got:

V3.0

Smart Airspace.  Shows airspace boundaries that are gray if you are at least 1000' (varies by your altitude) above or below the airspace.  Boundaries are colored otherwise.

V4.0, 4.1, 5.0.  No changes that I really cared about display wise.

V5.12

Simple frequency entry.  You can enter 22.8 and press enter rather than 122.80

Reverse freq lookup.  Finds the nearest facility using your selected freq and displays the name of that facility.

Airspace altitude labels.  That is, shows the floor and ceiling of airspaces just like you see on the sectional.

If you do not have a remote transponder, that space can be used as a user selectable field.

User selectable fields can display data or shortcuts to other pages.

Checklists.  You can use a free Garmin program to create your own checklists.  I've already used it to create normal and emergency checklists as well as aircraft limitations, avionics tips and tricks, and some rules of thumb.

V6.x

Adds holding patterns.  You can now build a holding pattern in space.  So if you are told to hold south of DIGGN on the 180 degree radial, left turns, 5 mile legs; you can build that into your flight plan.

Adds Search and Rescue search patterns (3 types).  Not that our Mooneys are idea for search and rescue, but it's there if you need it.  Good for you single guys that are stalking a girl.

No more discontinuities. In previous versions, if you loaded an arrival and an approach, your distance to destination might disappear because the two did not exactly touch in space (very small distance).  Fixed in this version.

Vectors to final no longer eliminates fixes outside the final approach fix so it is now safe to use vectors to final.

The following may have been added earlier and I just missed them:

Smart flight plan entry.  When I add a waypoint and start typing, the unit will look for the nearest fix/airport/navaid that matches my typing.  It will display the name of that item on a button to the right of the search field.  If I see what I want, I just touch the button to select it and add it to my flightplan.

Airway exit selection.  You have the option of either alphabetical or sequential, that is to say, in order as you proceed along the airway.

Probably others but that's all I can think of right now.

[flyboy0681]

I installed the PC based sim and found the Hold feature really cool and fun to play with. Another great new feature is the ability to animate weather movement, something that has been truly lacking since day one. Finally, Garmin added a fuel range ring, with the inner ring for the 45 minute reserves and the other for fumes.

Edited February 4, 2016 by flyboy0681

[midlifeflyer]

13 hours ago, Bob_Belville said:

Is this the simulator for the 700 series as well as 600?

GTN/GDU 620 PC Trainer software version 6.01.0

Hang on... I'm installing it right now....

Yes. It's configurable for the series.

Just turned it on and it's immediately better than the old one. Has the separate  "autopilot", airspeed and altitude window like the 400 series had. Much easier to fly.

Now looking a a few things...

[Bob_Belville]

17 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

Hang on... I'm installing it right now....

Yes. It's configurable for the series.

Just turned it on and it's immediately better than the old one. Has the separate  "autopilot", airspeed and altitude window like the 400 series had. Much easier to fly.

Now looking a a few things...

Thanks Mark, I downloaded it and saw that it covered all GTN. I'll have to look around.

[ArtVandelay]

There is a 50 min tutorial on YouTube plus other videos by a CFI Dick Rochfort, I would email him asking his opinion. He also as a video on setting up holds, he seems to know Garmin inside and out.

[midlifeflyer]

8 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

Now looking a a few things...

1. I was looking for this because I heard about it. Even when you load VTF, all of the other approach waypoints show up in the flight plan and on the moving map, solving the VTF "disappearing fix" issue that has been a problem.

2.

With v6.x of the software, when I load the approach, the route looks like this:

S50 SEA LOFAL DIGGN (approach) JAWBN COBUX FAMUV SEBTY RW26 then the missed approach.

If I don't get cleared for the approach before JAWBN, the GTN tries to take me on it anyway.  While in this particular case it is not much of a deviation from the flight direct to KCLM, in other cases there could be a significant difference.  The potential exists for a violation.

I loaded your scenario and, indeed, upon reaching JAWBN, it auto-activates the approach and treats JAWBN as the IAF rather than just another enroute waypoint.

[Marauder]

3 hours ago, Bob - S50 said:

V6.x

Adds holding patterns.  You can now build a holding pattern in space.  So if you are told to hold south of DIGGN on the 180 degree radial, left turns, 5 mile legs; you can build that into your flight plan.

>> I saw Rochfort's method of doing this with the OBS function, but really want to see if this works. I don't get holds often, but when I do, always trying to remember how to do it.

Adds Search and Rescue search patterns (3 types).  Not that our Mooneys are idea for search and rescue, but it's there if you need it.  Good for you single guys that are stalking a girl.

>> Not needed. My girls have enough girth that they may be visible from outer space, without any visual aids.

 

Quote

No more discontinuities. In previous versions, if you loaded an arrival and an approach, your distance to destination might disappear because the two did not exactly touch in space (very small distance).  Fixed in this version.

Vectors to final no longer eliminates fixes outside the final approach fix so it is now safe to use vectors to final.

>> That would be excellent. Wonder if this will confuse some folks.

The following may have been added earlier and I just missed them:

Smart flight plan entry.  When I add a waypoint and start typing, the unit will look for the nearest fix/airport/navaid that matches my typing.  It will display the name of that item on a button to the right of the search field.  If I see what I want, I just touch the button to select it and add it to my flightplan.

>> This was feature in 5.0. Pretty cool.

Airway exit selection.  You have the option of either alphabetical or sequential, that is to say, in order as you proceed along the airway.

>> I think this was in 5.0. Does help when you are trying to quickly find them.

Probably others but that's all I can think of right now.

>> 5.0 also includes the identifier for the frequencies you selected (both Com and Nav)

 

[kortopates]

4 hours ago, Bob - S50 said:

I don't think it's a bug because the simulator behavior agrees with the manual.  Even though you can't download the manual yet, it is part of the simulator installation.

Of course you are right. I tried it out as well after loading the new simulator and going through the manual.

Like you, I never wait to load the approach till I am on it in some fashion. As soon as I have the ATIS and know what I want its loaded which could be 45 min out. I have a plan and I know what I expect to do. Its just that till I get the close enough to talk to the appropriate terminal controller, I won't be able to confirm. So how does this change that approach of loading well in advance?

Well like you, I will often use the airport info in the GPS to load the freq - its faster than dialing in the numbers from the approach plate and reduces the chance of error. I can still do that as long as I do it before I load the approach. But I also noted loading the approach will NOT remove the airport identifier if it is current waypoint. (It will load it after your current active waypoint and if the current waypoint is the airport it will essentially not activate automatiucally like it would if the airport wasn't the current waypoint.)

After I have ATIS and then Twr freq loaded on my #2 GPS, I'll load the approach. (I use GPS#1 for enroute ATC freq's and #2 GPS for airport freq's, so my airport freq are ready to go before I have talked to my last controller on the approach).

Now with the approach loaded, if I am on the equivalent of a downwind past the FAF and not sure exactly where  I'll be turned in to intercept final or an intermediate segment, I may continue to wait till I am get the base vector to the approach segment and then activate the leg I am being vectored too - or I will become more familiar with the VTF capability not to drop the IF waypoints and take advantage of that feature. That will require more study of the tradeoffs.(I.e. I need to see if I can still determine station passage of intermediate fixes without needing to rely on the moving map for "close enough").

But for easy access to the tower frequencies, since I can no longer get to the airport waypoint from the flightplan, it looks like we'll have to use the Nearest -> Airport page to get the same info requiring an extra button or two - which is disappointing to me.

Also disappointing to me so far is that the Load approach function behaves differently depending on if the airport is your active waypoint (in which case the approach is not sequenced) or if it not. If not its removed and the approach is automatically sequenced or is activated. I may change my mind on this but right now feel I'd  rather control it myself; especially since its behavior can vary.

Thanks for bringing this to our attention!

I am also impressed by the new RF capability, although I have yet to see a single approach with RF legs that did not require Crew Authorization - so its unclear if this will translate into anything useful but my guess is in the future it likely will.

As for the create a hold capability - I have mixed feelings. Its so easy for the proficient pilot to use the Suspend and OBS capability to set up a hold and determine their entry and I fear pilots will loose their ability or never even learn this skill using this kind of feature as a crutch. But on the other hand if they can be proficient with the box and get it loaded in 5 sec or so I guess I won't be cringing watching the client just starring at the box and pushing buttons over and over again while not flying the plane and getting further and further behind. The simulator should prevent that - hopefully. We'll see.  

Edited February 4, 2016 by kortopates

[PTK]

One other very good and welcomed change in the new version is how it handles intermediate fixes. It's refreshing to see the IF showing up, regardless of how the approach was loaded or activated, i.e. at the IAF or as vtf. This wasn't always like that! The approach had to be activated at IAF for IF to show up. So you could be in vtf and given instruction to fly direct xyz IF only to find out it wasn't there in the flight plan! Until you loaded and activated the AP from an IAF transition!