M20C Sat in Hangar for 10 years - Buy or Pass?

[glafaille]

1 hour ago, animalmover said:

glafaille

I do travel quite a bit for work ( not always home ) but if you find something in the " neighborhood " let me know.  I'm in Marshall and usually looking for a reason to fly.

Animalmover:

 

Thanks for the kind offer.  I work at the Longview airport and would very much like to meet you and your airplane.  I travel to Marshall for business from time to time.  But if you happen to be in Longview sometime please let me know, I'll buy lunch.  

[chrisk]

29 minutes ago, glafaille said:

But if the aircraft is located 300 miles away in a small town far away from any airline service, or an interstate highway, like most Mooneys seem to be, then the expense of a pre-buy escalates rapidly, even more if the airplane can't be moved to the Service Center.  Mechanics must be shipped in and their travel time and expenses compensated.  A $1000 prebuy can easily turn into a $3000 or $4000 pre buy.  Plus a busy shop like Maxwell's may not be able to turn loose of a mechanic for a two or three day trip..

 

For an airplane 300 miles away, it is simple for me.  I talk to the seller on the phone.  If the plane sounds like it is in regular use, I ask for copies of the logs. Sometimes an older seller will balk at copying 100s of pages.  If so, I ask for digital photos of the last 5 or 6 years.    I also ask about any dents in the plane (Hangar rash), and request photos.  Then I search the NTSB data base for info on the plane.  --By this time you should have a good feel for the plane and should know if it has had any major damage history (some thing more than a gear up).   At that point, if the plane looks good and the individual selling it is reasonable,  take a weekend and fly or drive out to see the plane.   Make sure the owner brings the logs, and the owner should be prepared to demo the plane for you.  Make sure everything works.  (ILS, auto pilot, nav and com radios, etc).  Look at the typical problem areas for Mooneys  (nose truss dent, leaky tanks, etc).  If everything looks good at this point, then you can move forward: Settle on price, subject to an inspection. 

Also one thing that I have done before is to hire a local mechanic that does not work on the plane.  A $100 looking over of the plane by an active mechanic can save you a trip.  Think of it as a pre-screening before you  spend the time and money to visit it.

 

[glafaille]

Chrisk-

That is exactly what I have been doing, except for hiring of a local mechanic for a quick "look about".  I think that idea will be incorporated into all future potential deals.  That would certainly rule out the owners that are deaf or blind when it comes to their aircraft.

It's a very complicated process frought with many expensive "pot holes".  I'm learning as I go, but the education is expensive too, just not as expensive as the "pot holes". 

[glafaille]

15 hours ago, M20Doc said:

If the balance of the plane has the things you want, I would be asking about the engine and prop strike.  Suppose that the owner forgot his tow bar on the nose gear and damaged the tips of the prop. Quite a different scenario for the crank versus a gear up landing.

Clarence

 

Clarence-

 

Concerning the Green C model in Spring Branch and the engine repair following the gear up landing.  I talked to Forrest at Calkins Aero Service concerning the repair of the airframe and engine.  

Apparently the aircraft was NOT insured so the owner paid for the entire repair.  The engine was not torn down and in fact Forrst thinks the Lycoming SB concerning prop strike inspections is unnecessary.  He did the repair on the airframe but is unable to explain why the logbook entry concerning the repair seems to be missing from the scans provided to me by the broker.

It's possible I was not provided with a complete copy of the logbooks, maybe a page missing from the scan.  In any event there is enough about this plane to move it off of my candidate list.

Therefore, I'm still looking.

[mike_elliott]

Working just on the other side of Runway 13/31 from Don, have you thought about asking him to be on the lookout for one of his customers that might be selling or thinking of selling a plane in your price range?

[glafaille]

Mike - 

Yes I have.  Been over there several times talking to Don.  Nothing on the radar at this time.

[Shadrach]

19 hours ago, M20Doc said:

If the balance of the plane has the things you want, I would be asking about the engine and prop strike.  Suppose that the owner forgot his tow bar on the nose gear and damaged the tips of the prop. Quite a different scenario for the crank versus a gear up landing.

Clarence

In most cases, a factory spec Mooney tow bar will not interfere with a spinning prop.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, glafaille said:

 

Clarence-

 

Concerning the Green C model in Spring Branch and the engine repair following the gear up landing.  I talked to Forrest at Calkins Aero Service concerning the repair of the airframe and engine.  

Apparently the aircraft was NOT insured so the owner paid for the entire repair.  The engine was not torn down and in fact Forrst thinks the Lycoming SB concerning prop strike inspections is unnecessary.  He did the repair on the airframe but is unable to explain why the logbook entry concerning the repair seems to be missing from the scans provided to me by the broker.

It's possible I was not provided with a complete copy of the logbooks, maybe a page missing from the scan.  In any event there is enough about this plane to move it off of my candidate list.

Therefore, I'm still looking.

I agree with your pass on this one now that more information is available.  The owner now may come to realize that not doing the full SB compliance is going to cost him in loosing sales.

Clarence

[carl]

19 hours ago, jetdriven said:

The aileron is clearly bent.  And so is the end rib. You call it a tip plate but the parts catalog calls it a rib..its structural and shouldn't be flying.  Ask the factory what the allowable limits are for bends and wrinkling on that rib

im so confused . so many planes i cant keep track.

so I quoted the wrinkled wing tip. Did you get to fly this one ? Is it flyable like this? is this the one you drove to. 

 

the one with the prop strike , that was fixed , was it  the green one?  the guy said as is where is , you cant fly it to have inspected.did you drive to see this one? did you fly it? 

 I think I like the green one,but I thought it was red. the one with red interior with a untouched classic original panel with a glove box, which one was that.that is the one I like  best.

But truly, I would expand my search radius.

[carl]

 36,500

46,500

0 49,000

 33,000

 

[carusoam]

Does the green one look similar to the before shots of the recently polished Mooney?

Nice summary, Carl.

The market for planes seems to be warming up with the approaching flying season combined with the lower price of fuel.

Best regards,

-a-

[glafaille]

Sorry gents for the confusion.  Maybe I should start a new thread or only talk about a plane that I am serious about.  So here is the run down.

Lubbock Aero M20C - The original plane starting this discussion.  It appears that it sat in a hangar for over 10 years without an annual and not flown.  Has flown less than 10 hours in the past 12 years, was annualed by Lubbock Aero twice in past 2 years.  Owner refuses to allow the airplane to be moved for a pre buy.  Looks nice online, 6 pack panel, 1990s radios with basic Garmin GPS, nice appearing paint and interior.  Low time on engine but old (1997), mid time prop subject to 100 hr AD.

Green and White M20C - Had a gear up landing within the past year.  Engine was NOT torn down and inspected per the Lycoming Prop Strike SB.  Have not seen a logbook entry documenting the repair of the airframe.  Perhaps it wasn't scanned and sent to me.  Located in Spring Branch.

Red White and Blue M20C - This one is a candidate, and I intend to go look at it this weekend.  Nice paint and interior, fuel bladders, recent overhaul and prop.  Old King radio package, KX170bs.  No GPS, nonworking PC wing leveler.

White Gray Maroon M20C - Drove 6 hrs each way to see this one last weekend plus hotel stay.  Dent in wing tip likely a big deal.  Has a nice Stec autopilot, 6 pack panel, mid time engine with old overhaul (1994), AD on prop, nice paint, fair interior, probably not compliant with SB M20-208B.  I tried to buy at the asking price, but wanted the seller to cover airworthiness squawks.  The seller will allow a pre buy where ever you want but will not pay for any squawks at all, airworthiness or otherwise.  Nice price though.  Seller is a nice guy, just has no room whatsoever to maneuver on the price.

I don't know if the market is heating up or not, but I'm sure "beating the bushes"!  Stuff is bound to fly up!

[rbridges]

7 minutes ago, glafaille said:

 

I don't know if the market is heating up or not, but I'm sure "beating the bushes"!  Stuff is bound to fly up!

at least you've got this forum to help and you're taking time to use it.  I didn't join until after I bought my plane.  I realize how lucky I was.  There are so many potential pitfalls with buying the wrong plane.

[bonal]

1 hour ago, rbridges said:

at least you've got this forum to help and you're taking time to use it.  I didn't join until after I bought my plane.  I realize how lucky I was.  There are so many potential pitfalls with buying the wrong plane.

Amen to that 

[steingar]

12 hours ago, glafaille said:

Sorry gents for the confusion.  Maybe I should start a new thread or only talk about a plane that I am serious about.  So here is the run down.

Lubbock Aero M20C - The original plane starting this discussion.  It appears that it sat in a hangar for over 10 years without an annual and not flown.  Has flown less than 10 hours in the past 12 years, was annualed by Lubbock Aero twice in past 2 years.  Owner refuses to allow the airplane to be moved for a pre buy.  Looks nice online, 6 pack panel, 1990s radios with basic Garmin GPS, nice appearing paint and interior.  Low time on engine but old (1997), mid time prop subject to 100 hr AD.

Sayeth the Steingar the thing is scrap until it is airworthy.  I hope the guy likes his airplane.  It will be his for quite some time.

12 hours ago, glafaille said:

Green and White M20C - Had a gear up landing within the past year.  Engine was NOT torn down and inspected per the Lycoming Prop Strike SB.  Have not seen a logbook entry documenting the repair of the airframe.  Perhaps it wasn't scanned and sent to me.  Located in Spring Branch.

No how, no way.  Life may be short, but it needn't be that short.

12 hours ago, glafaille said:

Red White and Blue M20C - This one is a candidate, and I intend to go look at it this weekend.  Nice paint and interior, fuel bladders, recent overhaul and prop.  Old King radio package, KX170bs.  No GPS, nonworking PC wing leveler.

Does your mission require a panel-mount GPS?  Do you need an autopilot?

12 hours ago, glafaille said:

White Gray Maroon M20C - Drove 6 hrs each way to see this one last weekend plus hotel stay.  Dent in wing tip likely a big deal.  Has a nice Stec autopilot, 6 pack panel, mid time engine with old overhaul (1994), AD on prop, nice paint, fair interior, probably not compliant with SB M20-208B.  I tried to buy at the asking price, but wanted the seller to cover airworthiness squawks.  The seller will allow a pre buy where ever you want but will not pay for any squawks at all, airworthiness or otherwise.  Nice price though.  Seller is a nice guy, just has no room whatsoever to maneuver on the price.

If he had no room he shouldn't have dented the wing.  Depends on the price.  I saw one that was cheap as could be, but needed a paint job.  My problem was that after the paint job the ting wound've actually been a fairly expensive airplane, though it would have had a new paint job.  He was able to sell the airplane though.

 If its still a good price once the wing is repaired, might be worth it.  That said, Steingar sayeth that an airplane that is unairworthy is scrap, and is only worth scrap value..

12 hours ago, glafaille said:

I don't know if the market is heating up or not, but I'm sure "beating the bushes"!  Stuff is bound to fly up!

It will in time.  I really lucked out, I found a Mooney that had most of what I wanted and got to trade my Cherokee to boot.  You'll find yours.  Just give it time.

[Hank]

PC systems are fairly inexpensive to fix. Often you just need new tubing, el cheapo from Brittain.

[glafaille]

I don't NEED gps but it would be nice to have.  I think I need an autopilot more.  Fix the PC system and upgrade it a little to enable tracking or holding a heading.

[Urs_Wildermuth]

From far away where I am sitting the Lubbock one looks quite nice. Seems like the problem is the seller, not so much the plane. Question is, is it worth taking a good mechanic up there to look at it and possibly perform a pre-buy on site or at least to rule out the show stoppers. Maybe it can be a good airplane, but is "held hostage" by a uncooperative seller.

I've had a similar situation here with a guy who bought his own first plane recently. Plane was perfect for the guy, proved to be in good shape and well cared for despite the age. Owner would not budge on even test flying it, pre-buying it and simply shot every discussion in that direction right down. We ended up talking to the local maintenance guy who had anualled that plane for the last 20 years and he seemed to be quite happy to get rid of that owner. He was very cooperative and we could determine that the plane was fine. The guy bought it and is very happy with it. Nothing turned up after the purchase, a full annual was done before he took it over.

[jetdriven]

All 4 of these airplanes sound like awful candidates. Well, maybe not the red white and blue one. Any one of them have questionable engines and likely 10k of other squawks, this is how owners end up 60-70k into an M20C.  The only thing good to say about any of them is the low price.  Try moving up the price scale 10k and look at those planes.  

Edited February 5, 2016 by jetdriven

[Andy95W]

2 hours ago, Urs_Wildermuth said:

From far away where I am sitting the Lubbock one looks quite nice. Seems like the problem is the seller, not so much the plane. Question is, is it worth taking a good mechanic up there to look at it and possibly perform a pre-buy on site or at least to rule out the show stoppers. Maybe it can be a good airplane, but is "held hostage" by a uncooperative seller.

Along these lines, maybe the seller has seen too many "tire-kickers" and no serious buyers, so he's a little leery of letting his plane out of his hangar without good reason.

If you think it may be a candidate, take a drive out to Lubbock, maybe take an extra pair of eyes with you (preferably an A&P, but experienced airplane owner would do).  If the airplane looks really good for the price, make a contract where the final sale is contingent upon a real pre-purchase inspection by Don Maxwell.  He may go for that as an option.

[Marauder]

7 minutes ago, glafaille said:  

I don't know if the market is heating up or not, but I'm sure "beating the bushes"!  Stuff is bound to fly up!

at least you've got this forum to help and you're taking time to use it.  I didn't join until after I bought my plane.  I realize how lucky I was.  There are so many potential pitfalls with buying the wrong plane.

This place is awesome to discuss all things Mooney. I bought my Mooney way before Al Gore invented the Internet. I had to rely on advice from Wilbur and Orville on what to look out for when buying a Mooney.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[steingar]

57 minutes ago, N1395W said:

Along these lines, maybe the seller has seen too many "tire-kickers" and no serious buyers, so he's a little leery of letting his plane out of his hangar without good reason.

Jeekers, when I was selling my first airplane I would do anything to show it off.  I did an hour's flight just to show it to some old codgers. I'd have done the same with the Cherokee. I'd do whatever it takes to sell the airplane.  Hell, I bought the Mooney I did because the fellow wanted to trade. Its been buyers market for some time.  You gotta do what you gotta do to sell the aircraft.

[N201MKTurbo]

When I bought my current Mooney I still owned my '67 F. I used the plane almost every day and couldn't be without a plane (modern problems). It took about six months to sell the old one so I was a two Mooney man. When the buyer came out to pick up the plane, I watched it disappear over the horizon and with a tear in my eye I went home. About a half hour after getting home I got a call from the buyer saying he was at the airport. He was uncomfortable with the southwest mountains. He didn't know what to do. I told him I was busy for the next couple of days and couldn't fly back with him, but I could the next weekend. So I took him to the airline airport and he flew home. 

The next weekend I flew my old friend to Alabama. It was so wonderful to spend some quality time with a plane that I had flown for 19 years. I miss the old boy....

[steingar]

1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said:

When the buyer came out to pick up the plane, I watched it disappear over the horizon and with a tear in my eye I went home.

Yeah, I actually got just a bit choked up when I said goodbye to the Free Bird, my Cherokee.  We'd had numerous adventures and flown many places.  I just wanted faster.  The Mooney can do the local stuff just as well as the Cherokee.  But the Mooney is at is heart a traveling machine.

[Yetti]

stop it you are making me misty