Let's Talk ADS-B?

[mike_elliott]

3 hours ago, HRM said:

Well put. I was a bit outraged when L3 finally came out with their much ballyhooed Lynx system. affordable my a**.

yep, the L3 high, but lets break it down with the Garmin's offering..

Garmin Es330 about 4K plus installation...gets you what...Ads-B out compliance and 1090 required for above FL18 and other countries.

now the in piece..Garmin GDL 88 about 4K plus installation.

we still don't have the wifi piece. add in a flight stream for slightly under 1K plus installation.

In my case, the above Garmin solution wouldn't speak to the Aspen, where as the Lynx would, along with being a single box, one throat to choke solution. A stratus II (which I have) wont either. Take the cost of reselling the KT76C out of it and it is still high, but the L3 is a thing of beauty! It allows me to not cripple the plane with a solution that only can be used to FL18, not above, and plays nicely with the rest of the installed components.

Im not pitching the L3, but it is the only single box solution that made sense in my case based on the equipment I had, and comes in cheaper than piecemeal of others. I believe The key to everyone's  decision should be what they currently have, and what they want to end up with. If not really crippling the capability of a Bravo by limiting it to under FL18, flightsteam had some options, sort of. If wifi to the IPAD wasn't important, KT74 looked good. etc....

This is a real quagmire for the Stec/G1000 guys right now. the 8500 installed will look like pocket lint before this is over...

[gsxrpilot]

2 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

 

Garmin Es330 about 4K plus installation...gets you what...Ads-B out compliance and 1090 required for above FL18 and other countries.

now the in piece..Garmin GDL 88 about 4K plus installation.

we still don't have the wifi piece. add in a flight stream for slightly under 1K plus installation.

In my case, the above Garmin solution wouldn't speak to the Aspen, where as the Lynx would, along with being a single box, one throat to choke solution. A stratus II (which I have) wont either. Take the cost of reselling the KT76C out of it and it is still high, but the L3 is a thing of beauty! It allows me to not cripple the plane with a solution that only can be used to FL18, not above, and plays nicely with the rest of the installed components.

 

The 330ES's are $3000 all day on Ebay and other places. Installation and connection to my 530W was about $600.  That gives me ADSB Out and Traffic in on the 530. I get the Weather from my Stratus on the iPad which is much better than having the weather on the 530. The screen is just better.

I already had the iPad/ForeFlight/Stratus combo so for under $4000 I'm now fully ADSB in and out.

[HRM]

3 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

yep, the L3 high, but lets break it down with the Garmin's offering..

Mike, don't even get me started on Garmin.

Be advised, I was recently elected treasurer of the CBC†.

 

†Cheap Basterds Club

[peevee]

the 330ES is 1090, correct?

[kpaul]

6 minutes ago, peevee said:

the 330ES is 1090, correct?

Correct, that's what II have in my 75F.

[peevee]

29 minutes ago, kpaul said:

Correct, that's what II have in my 75F.

aside from adsb IN, any compelling reason to go with a 330es vs a kt74? They're comparably priced.

[kpaul]

26 minutes ago, peevee said:

aside from adsb IN, any compelling reason to go with a 330es vs a kt74? They're comparably priced.

Honestly, for me the choice was simple...the previous owner installed the 330ES along with a GTN650.  Sorry, I know that is not helpful and I have not ever compared the two.

[peevee]

1 minute ago, kpaul said:

Honestly, for me the choice was simple...the previous owner installed the 330ES along with a GTN650.  Sorry, I know that is not helpful and I have not ever compared the two.

thanks, just preplanning. The low cost options for 1090ES are relatively limited.

[N601RX]

I've been using my portable non installed Skyguardtwx for the out part to activate traffic and Stratus 2 for the in part for the last year and half.  Works well and found it on eBay for $500. I'll look at installed solution when 2020 gets here, rules quit changing and more cheaper options become available.

[peevee]

15 minutes ago, N601RX said:

I've been using my portable non installed Skyguardtwx for the out part to activate traffic and Stratus 2 for the in part for the last year and half.  Works well and found it on eBay for $500. I'll look at installed solution when 2020 gets here, rules quit changing and more cheaper options become available.

I'd snap one of those up in a heartbeat for $500, I've never seen one come up for sale for that.

[N601RX]

2 minutes ago, peevee said:

I'd snap one of those up in a heartbeat for $500, I've never seen one come up for sale for that.

Here is one that sold last month for $300, but it likely needs an update which cost $100. 

[HRM]

1 hour ago, N601RX said:

Here is one that sold last month for $300, but it likely needs an update which cost $100. 

That system illustrates the whole compliance issue universe.

The list price is $1,525, but the thing is sort of Rube Goldberg (like the Stratux) and is only for Experimental.

A Navworx or Freeflight unit is not much more money for "built-in" and TSO, but the building in part will set you back a few AMUs.

[Marauder]

3 hours ago, HRM said: Well put. I was a bit outraged when L3 finally came out with their much ballyhooed Lynx system. affordable my a**.

yep, the L3 high, but lets break it down with the Garmin's offering..

Garmin Es330 about 4K plus installation...gets you what...Ads-B out compliance and 1090 required for above FL18 and other countries.

now the in piece..Garmin GDL 88 about 4K plus installation.

we still don't have the wifi piece. add in a flight stream for slightly under 1K plus installation.

In my case, the above Garmin solution wouldn't speak to the Aspen, where as the Lynx would, along with being a single box, one throat to choke solution. A stratus II (which I have) wont either. Take the cost of reselling the KT76C out of it and it is still high, but the L3 is a thing of beauty! It allows me to not cripple the plane with a solution that only can be used to FL18, not above, and plays nicely with the rest of the installed components.

Im not pitching the L3, but it is the only single box solution that made sense in my case based on the equipment I had, and comes in cheaper than piecemeal of others. I believe The key to everyone's  decision should be what they currently have, and what they want to end up with. If not really crippling the capability of a Bravo by limiting it to under FL18, flightsteam had some options, sort of. If wifi to the IPAD wasn't important, KT74 looked good. etc....

This is a real quagmire for the Stec/G1000 guys right now. the 8500 installed will look like pocket lint before this is over...

Mike -- does the L3 product display anything on the GTN or GNC unit? My reason for holding out for the Capstone GDL-88 version is that it will display ADS-B in on both the Aspen and my GTN. For me this is a desired feature.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[mike_elliott]

I can't say for sure, but we do have an L3 mole on this forum who could verify it's functionality. I suspect it can/does, Chris

[Marauder]

2 hours ago, peevee said:

2 hours ago, kpaul said:

1 minute ago, kpaul said: Honestly, for me the choice was simple...the previous owner installed the 330ES along with a GTN650.  Sorry, I know that is not helpful and I have not ever compared the two.

 

thanks, just preplanning. The low cost options for 1090ES are relatively limited.

 

Something to consider if you are looking for a panel mounted "in" solution like the GDL-88. If you have a GTN series, you will get more FIS-B products on the GTN and more TIS-B targets than if you have a GNS series.

If you look at the "Compatible Devices" tab, you will see that you will receive up to 60 targets on the GTN and 8 on the GNS. You also won't get target trend and will get less weather products on the GNS series.

https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/in-the-air/avionics-safety/weather-solutions/gdl-88/prod63471.html

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Bob - S50]

21 hours ago, daver328 said:

We did that ... Sort of ... KT-74 + GNS-430W for "OUT" / and Stratus 2 + ForeFlight for "IN." Why the TRIG over KT-74? Aren't they essentially the same? 

Is the TRIG already STC'd with the GTN-650?

I recall there was a delay in getting the KT-74 STC with the 650/750 and the STC paired with the 430/530 came earlier. This had some influence on the decision to go with a 430W rather than the 650. (That and the comm issues others have had with the 650) ...

Since installing the "OUT" I do enjoy seeing the traffic now, but I never considered it a pure necessity. In our part of the country ... the radar input is what we benefit from the most. Also nice to see the METAR early before hearing ATIS/ASOS ... especially when things are heading towards marginal or lower IMC ... 

Why the Trig:  Current price at Pacific Coast is $2695 for the King and $2390 for the Trig.  Save $300.  Trig makes the KT74 for King and I've seen on this forum (if I remember right) that King does not seem to have the greatest reputation for support.

Is the Trig already STC'd with the GTN-650:  Yes.  Here is a partial quote from their website:

"The following WAAS GPS units are compatible and approved for use with our TT22 and TT31 transponders.

• Garmin GTN 600W and 700W series
• Garmin GNS 400W and 500W series
• Trig TN70 WAAS GPS
• FreeFlight 1201 WAAS GPS
• Accord NexNav Mini WAAS GPS"

 

[OR75]

The Trigg TT31 , BK Kt-74 and Avidyne AXP-340 are basically the same unit rebranded but there are a few nuances: 

The wiring needed for ADS-B out is basically the same on all 3. 

the wiring for TIS-A traffic are slightly different on the trig and on the BK units.

the Avidyne does not have traffic.

i chose the BK unit because I like how it looks. I did pay a few extra $100 for cosmetics. No other reason. 

[ltdoyle]

I went with the less expensive, but works great route.  I had a NavWorx 600-B installed for ADS-B out.  It also transmits via wifi to my Ipad weather & traffic.  I switched from Foreflight to XWingPro because FF doesn't play with others.  The traffic on Xwing is great however, as it shows direction, altitude, speed, climbing or decending, and N# if ADS-B out aircraft.

Turn key was $4K.

[Conrad]

Something I can't find on the NavWorx site, does that wifi module do you the favor of outputting the GPS data for use by WingX?

[carusoam]

http://hiltonsoftware.com/docs/HardwareCompatibility.pdf?x=0

They list the NavWorx comparability for three different models...

WingX wants to be compatible with everyone to the fullest extent.

Does this help?

Best regards,

-a-

[Bob - S50]

I went to the Aviation Trade Show here in Puyallup yesterday and talked to the guys from Pacific Coast Aviation.  Given that we have a GTN650 and a KT76A here is what I learned (according to them).

1.  If we just want ADS-B out, it will probably be cheaper (just by a little) to replace the KT76A with the new Garmin GTX335.  Installing the KT74 or TT31 will require installation of a speed switch ($125 list on line), the Garmin does not.  Instead, the Garmin uses groundspeed from the GTN650.  Also, installing the speed switch means you open the pitot line to install it which would require another pitot/static check.

2.  As suspected, the King KXR boxes are rebranded FreeFlight boxes.  If you install any of those boxes, they have to use their internal GPS because they are not set up to take a position source from our GTN650.  That means we would have to install another GPS antenna and associated cable.  Plus, since it is UAT, not 1090ES, it cannot use our current KT76A blade antenna (that antenna needs to stay there for the KT76A anyway).  So you have to install a UAT antenna.  And I think he said it has to be at least 3 feet from the KT76A antenna, but not more than 10 feet away.  What happens is you KT76A transmits its mode C code, and the UAT box hears it, reads it, then transmits the ADS-B information.  If you later replace your mode C transponder with a mode S transponder, that method won't work anymore.  You'll have to go back and run some wires from the new transponder to the UAT box.  If you decide to go with the UAT box, and you currently have a mode C transponder, you might want to just go ahead and replace it with the mode S transponder at the same time.  But if you are going to do that, why not just get you ADS-B out from the new transponder?

3.  He was not impressed by the NavWorx box.

4.  I did not ask about the Lynx because I'm sure my partners won't want to spend that much money.  Plus, for quite a bit less (GTX345), we can get traffic and weather on the GTN650, Garmin Pilot, or Foreflight.  Makes everybody happy.  And it comes with an AHRS built in for an emergency attitude indicator if we use Garmin Pilot.

Bottom line for me:  I'm going to try to convince my partners to install a GTX345 for OUT and IN.  He is probably off a bit but he said installed cost is probably in the neighborhood of $5200.  Probably a bit higher in the end I suspect.

 

[HRM]

The "ADS-B discussion" boils down to mission and it is about money.

The cheapest route for those operating with classic Mode-C transponders and nothing else are the A&P installable IN/OUTs that work with an iPad.

I am seeing the promised less-than 2 AMU solution with no waiting.

In fact, the number may go down even further and any owner with avionics skill can do the install at annual with their A&P.

The direction after that, for those with more sophisticated equipment already installed, is to consult with an avionics shop because you are going to need to deal with them anyway. You will also need to deal with the install crunch that they all say is coming.

[Seth]

On January 21, 2016 at 3:38 PM, mike_elliott said:

yep, the L3 high, but lets break it down with the Garmin's offering..

Garmin Es330 about 4K plus installation...gets you what...Ads-B out compliance and 1090 required for above FL18 and other countries.

now the in piece..Garmin GDL 88 about 4K plus installation.

we still don't have the wifi piece. add in a flight stream for slightly under 1K plus installation.

In my case, the above Garmin solution wouldn't speak to the Aspen, where as the Lynx would, along with being a single box, one throat to choke solution. A stratus II (which I have) wont either. Take the cost of reselling the KT76C out of it and it is still high, but the L3 is a thing of beauty! It allows me to not cripple the plane with a solution that only can be used to FL18, not above, and plays nicely with the rest of the installed components.

Im not pitching the L3, but it is the only single box solution that made sense in my case based on the equipment I had, and comes in cheaper than piecemeal of others. I believe The key to everyone's  decision should be what they currently have, and what they want to end up with. If not really crippling the capability of a Bravo by limiting it to under FL18, flightsteam had some options, sort of. If wifi to the IPAD wasn't important, KT74 looked good. etc....

This is a real quagmire for the Stec/G1000 guys right now. the 8500 installed will look like pocket lint before this is over...

How would you compare this to the new Garmin GTX 345?  One box solution, ADSB in and out to the iPad and other boxes in your cockpit - not sure about Aspen - and no flight plan data transfer from iPad to navigator.

Plus you get to replace your KT76A with a digital Transponder - one box.

I'm seriously considering it over the GDL-88

-Seth

[kortopates]

Is there anything the GDL 88 does that the GTX 345 doesn't do except for provide an optional GPS position source and provide ADS-b out on the UAT 978 - necessitating a transponder? For me it does much more than GDL 88 at a cost of about $1K over there ES transponder- saving me $3K right there. Looks like a GDL 88 killer to me and anyone wanting a 1090 ES out capability. p>

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[Bob - S50]

16 hours ago, kortopates said:

 

Is there anything the GDL 88 does that the GTX 345 doesn't do except for provide an optional GPS position source and provide ADS-b out on the UAT 978 - necessitating a transponder? For me it does much more than GDL 88 at a cost of about $1K over there ES transponder- saving me $3K right there. Looks like a GDL 88 killer to me and anyone wanting a 1090 ES out capability. p>

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The GTX345 does have an option GPS.  I cannot think of any advantage to the GDL88 vs the GTX345 except MAYBE the autonomous mode and MAYBE price.  The GTX not only puts traffric/weather on the GPS like the GDL88, it also sends it to your tablet, and it also has an AHRS built in.

I'm with you.  I see no advantage to the GDL88.