N201MKTurbo Posted January 13, 2016 Report Share Posted January 13, 2016 About 19 years ago I went to an aviation seminar in downtown Phoenix. I took my 3 year old son with me. I was carrying him on my shoulders and when we got to the door of the convention center there was an old guy there who started playing with my son. Sam was laughing and squirming and the old guy was tickling him. I look at the old guy and say "hay. you are Scott Crossfield". He shook my hand and then went back to my son Sam and asked if he liked airplanes. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DXB Posted January 13, 2016 Report Share Posted January 13, 2016 I really wish I was as perfect as some of you guys then I wouldn't want a chute . A save is a f'n save. People die flying mostly because of human factors that cannot adequately eliminated with design and training. I'm not a particularly skilled pilot, and I would buy a plane with a chute in a heartbeat if my resources were unlimited. But poor fuel planning is a human factor that can be eliminated with the most basic training combined with a minimum ethic of individual responsibility - you don't have to be Bob Hoover to ensure you have ample fuel margins. In cases like this one, responsibility gets eroded by reliance on a bail out option that has its own risks. And the company's tacitly promoting such reliance through marketing doesn't exactly help aviation. There are indeed occasional instances where the minimal skills and planning would not have been enough, and yet the chute saved some lives. But a save is not a f'n save. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Zuffoletto Posted January 13, 2016 Report Share Posted January 13, 2016 A Cirrus pilot on one of the other pilot forums posted a photo of a Cirrus making a normal landing in response to this story, showing that it can be done. I don't care what you think about chutes, that's pretty funny right there. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N33GG Posted January 13, 2016 Report Share Posted January 13, 2016 A Cirrus pilot on one of the other pilot forums posted a photo of a Cirrus making a normal landing in response to this story, showing that it can be done. I don't care what you think about chutes, that's pretty funny right there. Now that's funny, I don't care who you are!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted January 13, 2016 Report Share Posted January 13, 2016 Two attached photos show aircraft where each pilot was unable to get the plane on the runway in IMC. One shows a "save" and the other the wreckage where three people lost their lives. A save is a f'n save. People die flying mostly because of human factors that cannot adequately eliminated with design and training. The third photo shows what can happen even when you get a super-human involved. I really wish I was as perfect as some of you guys then I wouldn't want a chute. A chute would not have saved Scott Crossfield. If I remember the report correctly, he was vectored into a thunderstorm. I'm sure that is not within BRS design specification limits. In the last week, Cirrus pilots on multiple forums have said that with the chute, they make flights that they would not make without the chute. So instead of reducing the accident rate, the chute is encouraging riskier behavior because "I can always pull the chute and survive." Not good . . . . . 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N201MKTurbo Posted January 13, 2016 Report Share Posted January 13, 2016 Oh gosh, I fly without a parachute, I ride my motorcycle without a helmet, I sometimes drive without the seatbelt fastened. When I was a kid we didn't even know what a bike helmet was. I often fly VFR without flight following! Its a wonder I'm still alive! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peevee Posted January 13, 2016 Report Share Posted January 13, 2016 I'm not a particularly skilled pilot, and I would buy a plane with a chute in a heartbeat if my resources were unlimited. But poor fuel planning is a human factor that can be eliminated with the most basic training combined with a minimum ethic of individual responsibility - you don't have to be Bob Hoover to ensure you have ample fuel margins. In cases like this one, responsibility gets eroded by reliance on a bail out option that has its own risks. And the company's tacitly promoting such reliance through marketing doesn't exactly help aviation. There are indeed occasional instances where the minimal skills and planning would not have been enough, and yet the chute saved some lives. But a save is not a f'n save. A lot of factors can be eliminated, few of them are. Yeah, the guys a moron. But it's better he's an alive moron that didn't kill himself and burn down a bunch of houses in the process. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Posted January 13, 2016 Report Share Posted January 13, 2016 Flying GA planes places an individual at several times the risk of death vs traveling by car for a given trip. Thus, having a GA plane encourages riskier behavior (vs the safer drive) because "I can get there earlier." So do you chute-haters advocate getting rid of GA aircraft because GA aircraft cause people to take unnecessary risks in travel? How ignorant does that sound? It is undeniable that pilots take additional risks because of the presence of the chute. But this in an incremental risk. Flying with or without a chute is MUCH more dangerous than driving. Moreover, most importantly, the chute, when used appropriately, as advocated by the anti-chute folks, will close the risk delta between GA flying and driving. Saying "them there chutes makes you more likely to take risks and you shouldn't have a chute" is just plain ignorant. Cirrus has produced over 6,000 airplanes. In the aggregate the addition of the fleet has been good for the image of GA and the overall GA fleet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aviatoreb Posted January 13, 2016 Report Share Posted January 13, 2016 (edited) 7 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said: Oh gosh, I fly without a parachute, I ride my motorcycle without a helmet, I sometimes drive without the seatbelt fastened. When I was a kid we didn't even know what a bike helmet was. I often fly VFR without flight following! Its a wonder I'm still alive! Statistically, I think you must be dead by now, speaking on average of course. Especially a childhood with no helmets. What were you thinking?! Edited January 14, 2016 by aviatoreb 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonal Posted January 13, 2016 Report Share Posted January 13, 2016 Growing up with out much safety equipment or the requirement for same you certainly had a greater sense of danger. I remember watching Red asphalt and I cant remember the other ones name for driver ed but they were pretty creepy. would not even consider riding a motorcycle with out a full face helmet not so much for the obvious protection it provides I hate bugs in my teeth and eyes watering at speed is very un pleasant. When ever there is an accident and its determined to be pilot error I feel better because that is something I can learn from and control. is it against the rules to wear a parachute and evacuate the airplane if the engine fails. most of the places I fly there isn't much to hit other than trees and rocks except when near the airport and on a departure the Cirrus chute might not be much help anyway best to already know where to put down before you even rotate. I cant see the point in hiding from life because it might get me killed. one thing is certain we are all going to die. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyNameIsNobody Posted January 13, 2016 Report Share Posted January 13, 2016 Flying GA planes places an individual at several times the risk of death vs traveling by car for a given trip. Thus, having a GA plane encourages riskier behavior (vs the safer drive) because "I can get there earlier." So do you chute-haters advocate getting rid of GA aircraft because GA aircraft cause people to take unnecessary risks in travel? How ignorant does that sound? It is undeniable that pilots take additional risks because of the presence of the chute. But this in an incremental risk. Flying with or without a chute is MUCH more dangerous than driving. Moreover, most importantly, the chute, when used appropriately, as advocated by the anti-chute folks, will close the risk delta between GA flying and driving. Saying "them there chutes makes you more likely to take risks and you shouldn't have a chute" is just plain ignorant. Cirrus has produced over 6,000 airplanes. In the aggregate the addition of the fleet has been good for the image of GA and the overall GA fleet. Can you define what a "chute-hater" is? I want to know so I can be one of the "in crowd" guys... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steingar Posted January 13, 2016 Report Share Posted January 13, 2016 I ride my motorcycle without a helmet...sometimes drive without the seatbelt fastened.... AGATT. All Gear All The Time. Do it. Sooner or later some cager is going to get your number. Took 20 years but happened to me. Don't dress for the ride, dress for the crash. And yeah, wear your damn seat belt. Talk about cheap insurance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted January 13, 2016 Report Share Posted January 13, 2016 We have lost the source data on all the quotes today... I was trying to understand where Tom was seeing 'Chute Hating'. What I did notice is that all the quotes are not representing who said it and when. We have lost the thread count and now the quote references. Some things improve and somethings fall behind. Message sent to Craig... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mooniac58 Posted January 13, 2016 Report Share Posted January 13, 2016 We have lost the source data on all the quotes today... I was trying to understand where Tom was seeing 'Chute Hating'. What I did notice is that all the quotes are not representing who said it and when. We have lost the thread count and now the quote references. Some things improve and somethings fall behind. Message sent to Craig... Best regards, -a- That is really weird and I wish I knew how to fix it - I will report it to the forum software company. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted January 13, 2016 Report Share Posted January 13, 2016 Dang, your still Mooney quick, Craig! Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mooniac58 Posted January 13, 2016 Report Share Posted January 13, 2016 And just as I was getting ready to contact IPBoard it looks like a new update was just released. Let's see if it fixes the issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mooniac58 Posted January 13, 2016 Report Share Posted January 13, 2016 Looks to be fixed to me now. If you still see this let me know. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted January 13, 2016 Report Share Posted January 13, 2016 That worked... Still would like to get the thread count back. It helps when referring to a particular line like old times. Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mooniac58 Posted January 13, 2016 Report Share Posted January 13, 2016 That is probably not possible since it likely was changed in the new 4.0 version of the forum software. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DXB Posted January 14, 2016 Report Share Posted January 14, 2016 Great! Now we can resume our chute hater discussion. I think it was Orville Wright who wisely first said "chute pullas gonna pull, chute haters gonna hate." If this is not yet an aviation meme, it needs to be. But seriously, I don't think there's much debate on whether chutes have some value- they're a real innovation that's here to stay. The issue is how make them do as much good and as little harm as possible; specifically how to keep certain clowns who manage to get PPLs from using their chutes to intensify their innate lack of thought and judgement. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpaul Posted January 14, 2016 Report Share Posted January 14, 2016 (edited) Edited January 14, 2016 by kpaul 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DXB Posted January 14, 2016 Report Share Posted January 14, 2016 Exactly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N201MKTurbo Posted January 14, 2016 Report Share Posted January 14, 2016 2 hours ago, steingar said: AGATT. All Gear All The Time. Do it. Sooner or later some cager is going to get your number. Took 20 years but happened to me. Don't dress for the ride, dress for the crash. And yeah, wear your damn seat belt. Talk about cheap insurance. I'll make a deal with you. I won't tell you how to live your life and you don't tell me. OK? I don't care if you think I'm a fool. FWIW I've had 4 serious motorcycle wrecks, totaled two cars (with motorcycles) in both of those accidents I was wearing nothing but shorts, t shirt and flip flops. In both instances my injuries amounted sprained thumbs from being thrown off the bike with great force. I flew through the air did two flips and landed on my butt, both times. So I'm very lucky. My last motorcycle wreck was in 1979. I have close to 300,000 miles on motorcycles. I have had a street bike to ride continuously for 42 years. Now when I ride my dirt bike, I dress up like a ninja worrier because I know I'll crash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisk Posted January 14, 2016 Report Share Posted January 14, 2016 6 hours ago, bonal said: one thing is certain we are all going to die. Yes, it is certain, but I would prefer to put it off for a good long time. I fall into the camp of wanting a chute for my Mooney. Unfortunately, I also fall into the camp of not wanting a $10K bill every 10 years to re-pack a chute. --I'm not sure why this needs to cost more than a few $100, other than the captive aviation market. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted January 14, 2016 Report Share Posted January 14, 2016 2 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said: 5 hours ago, steingar said: 2 hours ago, steingar said: AGATT. All Gear All The Time. Do it. Sooner or later some cager is going to get your number. Took 20 years but happened to me. Don't dress for the ride, dress for the crash. And yeah, wear your damn seat belt. Talk about cheap insurance. 5 hours ago, steingar said: 9 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said: I ride my motorcycle without a helmet...sometimes drive without the seatbelt fastened.... I'll make a deal with you. I won't tell you how to live your life and you don't tell me. OK? I don't care if you think I'm a fool. FWIW I've had 4 serious motorcycle wrecks, totaled two cars (with motorcycles) in both of those accidents I was wearing nothing but shorts, t shirt and flip flops. In both instances my injuries amounted sprained thumbs from being thrown off the bike with great force. I flew through the air did two flips and landed on my butt, both times. So I'm very lucky. My last motorcycle wreck was in 1979. I have close to 300,000 miles on motorcycles. I have had a street bike to ride continuously for 42 years. Now when I ride my dirt bike, I dress up like a ninja worrier because I know I'll crash. I was always led to believe to at least have protective equipment on the bike. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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