Mcstealth Posted January 2, 2016 Report Share Posted January 2, 2016 The title says it all. I have to admit this is the first time I read a full NTSB report and not just the cliff note version you see on WEB sites. http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20120825X85310&ntsbno=CEN12FA570&akey=1 I guess I am mad and sad. Why the hell do you disconnect a stall horn? He was not feeling well the night before the flight. He ate with us at the steak house that evening and I could tell he was feeling not so well, and I totally believe they found Benadryl in his system. Enough to impair him, who knows? I know how he preached airspeed on final. How the hell did that happen? I don't know what a Grumman Tiger flies like but when you are that low, you can't stall worthy slow in any airplane. Anyway. df Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted January 2, 2016 Report Share Posted January 2, 2016 Mooney stall indicators have a tendency to fail with the switch open... If you haven't heard your stall warning in a while, it is a good idea to test it with the power on. My O's failed once and stayed that way for an unknown amount of time. Now it is powered up during the pre-flight. It hasn't failed since. Sorry of the news, David. But, Thanks for the reminder. Best regards, -a- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
takair Posted January 2, 2016 Report Share Posted January 2, 2016 (edited) Sorry to hear that. Just a note of correction, this does not appear to be a Grumman "Tiger", but a Grumman "AA-1", which is usually the "Yankee". This is the much smaller two place aircraft and would typically be flown closer to gross weight. They are a Jim Bede design and are known to be quite "sporty". Depending on the year, they are also known to have aggressive stall characteristics. As I recall, early ones were worse than newer. The Tiger is the 4 place and is more docile. Both aircraft are good, but the small one has to be flown carefully at lower speeds and higher weights. Edited January 3, 2016 by takair Correction from American to Yankee. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yetti Posted January 2, 2016 Report Share Posted January 2, 2016 I am not sure the family quote makes sense. They found the corrosion made it so it would not make contact until after it was cleaned. So not working was cause of corrosion on the terminals. I would think the no fuel in the tanks was more of an issue. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyboy0681 Posted January 2, 2016 Report Share Posted January 2, 2016 11 hours ago, Mcstealth said: I guess I am mad and sad. Why the hell do you disconnect a stall horn? He was not feeling well the night before the flight. He ate with us at the steak house that evening and I could tell he was feeling not so well, and I totally believe they found Benadryl in his system. Enough to impair him, who knows? I know how he preached airspeed on final. How the hell did that happen? I don't know what a Grumman Tiger flies like but when you are that low, you can't stall worthy slow in any airplane. Anyway. df Reading a final report when you knew the people contained with its pages is a very difficult task to undertake. I lost two very close friends to crashes over the years, one in a horrific midair that took place within the Teterboro airspace in November, 1985 when his Warrior was broadsided by a Falcon 10 owned by NABSICO. The emotional aftermath was just awful, only compounded a year later by the findings of the report. I feel for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peevee Posted January 2, 2016 Report Share Posted January 2, 2016 12 hours ago, Mcstealth said: I know how he preached airspeed on final. How the hell did that happen? is it perhaps possible they got a bug or something that blocked the pitot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyNameIsNobody Posted January 2, 2016 Report Share Posted January 2, 2016 I had an audible gear and pre-stall alert installed in my plane. It IS a potential life-saver. Sorry this happened to someone you cared about. We are ALL human...and fly machines made and maintained by same humans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aviatoreb Posted January 2, 2016 Report Share Posted January 2, 2016 17 minutes ago, MyNameIsNobody said: I had an audible gear and pre-stall alert installed in my plane. It IS a potential life-saver. Sorry this happened to someone you cared about. We are ALL human...and fly machines made and maintained by same humans. This scenario possibility is the exact reason I had my AOA with audible warnings in english "getting slow" - in the headset - which come slightly before the standard stall horn. I am sure your CFI was a superb pilot. Everyone can have a bad day. Hopefully we can build some system redundancy to help trap errors. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N33GG Posted January 4, 2016 Report Share Posted January 4, 2016 I did my private pilot training in the early 1970's in one of the original AA-1 Yankees. I heard all of the horror stories from the local pilot crowd, and being quite new to flying airplanes I asked my instructor about the concerns. We put that airplane through all kinds of conditions and my fears were erased. The AA-1's are very honest aircraft, they do exactly what you tell it to do with the controls, stalls are not unusual, and overall to me they are very similar to Mooneys. Flying an AA-1 is actually great preparation for flying Mooneys. I have flown all of the Grumman models, and none of them were the boogie man that some claim them to be. Quite the contrary. I even owned an AA-1B for several years, because I liked them so well for their flying characteristics. Really fun airplane! I eventually traded it for a Mooney C model. That's food for thought on the current aircraft market, isn't it. I have no good explanation for this accident. I did not know the CFI, although I spend a fair amount of time in Llano (I will be there later this week). Instructing is very dangerous. Too easy to get distracted, trust the student too much, high work load with several aircraft in the pattern, etc. As a CFI, I've been there before. As CFI's, we learn to fly from the right seat with reference to outside attitude, other sensory inputs, and not instruments. The instruments are there for the student. A bug in the pitot tube would not be an issue for a CFI. This accident reminds me of the report of the accident that took the life of Don Maxwell's best friend and a Mooney test pilot. It just makes me try to be careful to never get casual about flying any aircraft, even if it is "just" a trainer. They can all kill you. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mooneymite Posted January 4, 2016 Report Share Posted January 4, 2016 I dunno....it doesn't seem to add up, but I would think wake turbulence from the helicopter would have been my first guess. Anyone's who's ever flown near downwash gives those whirly things a lot of space. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N33GG Posted January 4, 2016 Report Share Posted January 4, 2016 Helicopters don't create wake turbulence and downwash... but helicopter pilots do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted January 4, 2016 Report Share Posted January 4, 2016 I dunno....it doesn't seem to add up, but I would think wake turbulence from the helicopter would have been my first guess. Anyone's who's ever flown near downwash gives those whirly things a lot of space. I had a first hand experience hitting the down wash of a helicopter. I had a helicopter pass over me by 1000' on a perfectly calm day. The next thing I know, I'm in the worst turbulence I ever experienced. I also passed through the prop wash of a C-130. That one I chalk up to being in the young and extremely dumb point of my life. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donkaye Posted January 4, 2016 Report Share Posted January 4, 2016 (edited) On January 2, 2016 at 9:30 PM, carusoam said: If you haven't heard your stall warning in a while, it is a good idea to test it with the power on. You should hear the stall warning horn on every flight, or you're not in the correct landing attitude on touchdown or it is broken. If it is broken, then it should be replaced; certainly not disabled. I just replace mine for incorrect operation. Notwithstanding what I just said, when familiar with an airplane, pitch attitude on final should be ingrained on the mind so that there is no chance of a stall happening, stall warning horn or not. This attitude is particularly clear with a Mooney on final. See my Landing Video. Edited January 4, 2016 by donkaye 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mcstealth Posted January 5, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 What do you all think of the "no fuel odor" noticed? Maybe the engine hiccupped from low fuel? The report doesn't mention any fire or burning. That crossed my mind as well as Yetti's DF 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyNameIsNobody Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 1 hour ago, donkaye said: You should hear the stall warning horn on every flight, or you're not in the correct landing attitude on touchdown or it is broken. If it is broken, then it should be replaced; certainly not disabled. I just replace mine for incorrect operation. Notwithstanding what I just said, when familiar with an airplane, pitch attitude on final should be ingrained on the mind so that there is no chance of a stall happening, stall warning horn or not. This attitude is particularly clear with a Mooney on final. See my Landing Video. Is the video available on You Tube? Is it "Free"? You had stated in a previous post that you "don't need to instruct"...train. Why not post/donate a potentially life saving video to the aviation world? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Fox Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 Stall horn should not affect a trained pilot , pitch angles approaching stalls are obvious....Don't care what anybody says , the Grummans are less forgiving to departure stalls , and base to final stalls ...... Just glad it wasn't someone I knew.......sorry for your loss... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peevee Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 1 hour ago, MyNameIsNobody said: Is the video available on You Tube? Is it "Free"? You had stated in a previous post that you "don't need to instruct"...train. Why not post/donate a potentially life saving video to the aviation world? definitely not free. it's alright. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aviatoreb Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 1 hour ago, MyNameIsNobody said: Is the video available on You Tube? Is it "Free"? You had stated in a previous post that you "don't need to instruct"...train. Why not post/donate a potentially life saving video to the aviation world? You figure there are a lot of Mooney owners out there too cheap to pay $25 for the "potentially life saving video"? Please tell me who they are so I can avoid risking my life in their likely unsafe under maintained airplane. If safety is a priority to you and you think this is a good idea then buy it. I bought it and it is an excellent video. I figured I was worth it. I didn't resort to a public forum to try and squeeze 25 bucks out of Don. Seriously if I thought he should do so I would have pm'ed it for a private discussion but I seriously have no idea with his selling a video any more than I do with the Kings selling their videos. Quality products require some motivation to be produced and our economic system rewards it this way. Thanks Don for making a great video that I enjoyed especially when I bought my airplane five years ago. Too bad we were on opposite coasts or I would have spent some dual time with you too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donkaye Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, aviatoreb said: You figure there are a lot of Mooney owners out there too cheap to pay $25 for the "potentially life saving video"? Please tell me who they are so I can avoid risking my life in their likely unsafe under maintained airplane. If safety is a priority to you and you think this is a good idea then buy it. I bought it and it is an excellent video. I figured I was worth it. I didn't resort to a public forum to try and squeeze 25 bucks out of Don. Seriously if I thought he should do so I would have pm'ed it for a private discussion but I seriously have no idea with his selling a video any more than I do with the Kings selling their videos. Quality products require some motivation to be produced and our economic system rewards it this way. Thanks Don for making a great video that I enjoyed especially when I bought my airplane five years ago. Too bad we were on opposite coasts or I would have spent some dual time with you too. Thank you. Actually, I make very little money on the video. By the time you consider buying the DVD disks, the paper for the disk cover, the disk holder, the bubble package material, the postage, and the cut Paypal takes, you aren't left with very much. I know I could put the disk in a cheap paper holder, not include any instructional material, stuff it in a cheap disk envelope, or potentially put it online cheaper, but I'd rather people have the disk to play over and over again---and have the video have a little class. I priced it at a point where anybody who owns an airplane could afford it. Where can you pay $25 and get personal Mooney instruction from a Master Flight Instructor who has been teaching mostly in Mooneys for the past 22 years; especially how to land a Mooney? Edited January 5, 2016 by donkaye 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aviatoreb Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 Just now, donkaye said: Thank you. Actually, I make very little money on the video. By the time you consider buying the DVD disks, the paper for the disk cover, the disk holder, the bubble package material, the postage, and the cut Paypal takes, you aren't left with very much. I know I could put the disk in a cheap paper holder, or potentially put it online cheaper, but I'd rather people have the disk to play over and over again. Where can you pay $25 and get personal Mooney instruction from a Master Flight Instructor who has been teaching mostly in Mooneys for the past 22 years; especially how to land a Mooney? Exactly. I figure I got the cheapest flight lesson on the planet from a master cfi mooney specialist. I was actually offended for someone to come on and presume to think it was alright to publicly call you out/pressure you to try and manipulate a free copy for everyone like that. That's not right. I heard the Kings made more money than you. Maybe you should do what they did? :-) (I have their videos too). Yeah I bet you don't make much on it. I wrote a textbook once - look me up on amazon and you will see it. It took me 3 or 4 years and I cannot say how many thousands of hours to do it. I don't make any money worth talking about for it. Since I don't make money on it doesn't mean I should therefore give it away. Actually the copyright is owned by the publisher and they barely cover their expenses. Back to topic - Don's video is fantastic - everyone go buy it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HRM Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 42 minutes ago, donkaye said: Thank you. Actually, I make very little money on the video. By the time you consider buying the DVD disks, the paper for the disk cover, the disk holder, the bubble package material, the postage, and the cut Paypal takes, you aren't left with very much. I know I could put the disk in a cheap paper holder, not include any instructional material, stuff it in a cheap disk envelope, or potentially put it online cheaper, but I'd rather people have the disk to play over and over again---and have the video have a little class. Where can you pay $25 and get personal Mooney instruction from a Master Flight Instructor who has been teaching mostly in Mooneys for the past 22 years; especially how to land a Mooney? Your DVD is well worth the $25 you charge and it is Mooney and only Mooney. Other aircraft (non-Mooney) owners prattle about how hard Mooneys are to land--that is nonsense to those who know how to land a Mooney and that is exactly what your DVD teaches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyNameIsNobody Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 How long is the video? What is a breakdown of the "instructional material content"? Does the video cover landings in short/medium and long body Mooney's to include discussion on each and differences regarding power plants/Flap application/speeds. Is it narrated/subtitles/slow motion. Does it discuss when things aren't going right (speed/to high/to low) with actual examples? Power on and flaps with go-around? All different models? What does a buyer get for his $25 bucks other than a couple testimonials that it is fantastic and all right? I wasn't suggesting it should be free. I know nothing about this video. I do know what I think of the master flight instructor and he has communicated what he thinks of me on this forum. Again, I was told that he "doesn't need or "do it" for the money. If you haven't flown a Mooney/are transitioning/have landing issues...$25 bucks is a value IF it covers your Mooney (power-plant and airframe). They (Mooney's) aren't "generic" and the video shouldn't be either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyNameIsNobody Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 I am offended by your offense...so we are even. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyNameIsNobody Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 Or not... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmyfm20s Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 Are you this ruff on the kids selling lemonade in your neighborhood also? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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