help landing Ovation 3

[piperpainter]

Go do some slow flight and stalls and you'll get an idea how the plane feels when at slow speeds. Then when you come into land go for feel more than just "speed!" Works for me...no it's not an ovation but still....they're all the same just a little different!  

[rbridges]

1 hour ago, Marauder said:

I've noticed the high sink rate despite the correct airspeed a few times in my years of ownership. I often wondered if it was a CG issue or a dynamic associated with the angle of attack on the laminar wing.

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**cough**cough**fat girlfriends

[gsengle]

Ovation is very pitch sensitive in the flare, I bet you're overcontrolling. Speed aka two fast isn't necessary the issue, it's that you have to hold it off without ballooning in the float until you bleed off energy and it settles... Assuming sufficient runway length. Maybe you're coming in too slow? I hold steady in the flare without ballooning while I add back trim with the rocker switch.

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[peevee]

56 minutes ago, gsengle said:

Maybe you're coming in too slow? I hold steady in the flare without ballooning while I add back trim with the rocker switch.

 

My question also.

My only comment on the trim method is the plane is already trimmed pretty far back on final, adding more trim makes that pitch up moment even worse if you had to go around.

[Shadrach]

26 minutes ago, gsengle said:

Ovation is very pitch sensitive in the flare, I bet you're overcontrolling. Speed aka two fast isn't necessary the issue, it's that you have to hold it off without ballooning in the float until you bleed off energy and it settles... Assuming sufficient runway length. Maybe you're coming in too slow? I hold steady in the flare without ballooning while I add back trim with the rocker switch.

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Seems to me If an aircraft bounces from being too slow that will not likely be flyable afterwords... I have done full stall, full aft elevator, short field landings and the aircraft does not bounce. Our wings are so low to the ground that ground effect provides a noticeable cushion against bone jarring hits. Now, if you come it too fast, bounce and then stall it while in ground effect it will hit pretty hard. Running out of energy 3' above the ground sucks (but it's better than 30' above the ground) but it does not produce a bounce.  

[gsengle]

Yes but too fast becomes a problem either when you a. botch the flare or b. run out of runway... I'm not advocating long floats, just guessing at the issue here...

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[kevinw]

6 hours ago, rbridges said:

If you're landing on the mains and it's still bouncing, I would guess too much energy.  You may be "forcing" it on the runway before it's ready.  I tend to pull the power and try to "fly" it down the runway.  It eventually runs out of steam and touches down.  Same principle should apply with your bigger plane.  Also, make sure your yoke is all the way back when your mains touch.  

I think you hit the nail on the head and he may be forcing it down. That's a no-no in any airplane but even more so in a Mooney (as we all know). I had trouble bouncing early on and I bought Don's video. It taught me to adjust my speed based on the conditions. Normal landing speed for me is 70 knots. If I'm alone and at half fuel or less, I reduce it to 65 and still have plenty of energy in the flare.

[M20F]

3 minutes ago, kevinw said:

I think you hit the nail on the head and he may be forcing it down. That's a no-no in any airplane but even more so in a Mooney (as we all know). I had trouble bouncing early on and I bought Don's video. It taught me to adjust my speed based on the conditions. Normal landing speed for me is 70 knots. If I'm alone and at half fuel or less, I reduce it to 65 and still have plenty of energy in the flare.

It isn't though one dimensional.  You can have a 5' sink rate at 70 knots or a 1000' sink rate at 70 knots and when you hit with an excessive sink rate even at the right speed it is going to bounce if you don't have the right power (leading to the right AOA) for that speed.  You can see this even more dramatically in a heavier twin where in many you need to carry power all the way through the flare just to keep from having an overly excessive sink rate.  

No idea what the OP is doing and think the recommendations of getting instruction is the right one as it is an impossible problem to diagnose over the Internet.  It is fair to say though it is either too fast, too slow, too much sink, or a combination of that leads to the bounce.

[Shadrach]

4 hours ago, Marauder said:

I've noticed the high sink rate despite the correct airspeed a few times in my years of ownership. I often wondered if it was a CG issue or a dynamic associated with the angle of attack on the laminar wing.

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The CG and weight will affect the pitch angle of the sink. Heavier and aft CG and the plane will descend in a flatter pitch relative to the ground (AOA is always the same). There are two ways to maintain airspeed, power or pitch (typically some combination of both).  For true short field landings, the last 100' of the approach is a steep power off descent at 1.1Vso with the flair beginning at about a wingspan above the runway and smoothly continuing to full aft elevator a the plan touches down.   There is no bounce...

[kj2016]

what would be a reasonable descent rate as you fly  over the numbers or enter the flare? thanks

[PMcClure]

7 hours ago, M20F said:

40 minutes ago, Kuljit hundal said:

what would be a reasonable descent rate as you fly  over the numbers or enter the flare? thanks

For normal landings with plenty of RR and no gusts or strong cross winds, I set up on final for 13" MP. With gear and flaps down, this gives me 85-90 knots and 500fpm. I'll reduce power again on short final to get my speed under 75 knots. Once the RR is made, reduce power and never look at the VSI or airspeed indicator again. I don't really flare but more round out, flying parallel to the RR and keep the nose up and keep holding off until she sits down. 

Edited December 30, 2015 by PMcClure

[Shadrach]

34 minutes ago, PMcClure said:

For normal landings with plenty of RR and no gusts or strong cross winds, I set up on final for 13" MP. With gear and flaps down, this gives me 85-90 knots and 500fpm. I'll reduce power again on short final to get my speed under 75 knots. Once the RR is made, reduce power and never look at the VSI or airspeed indicator again. I don't really flare but more round out, flying parallel to the RR and keep the nose up and keep holding off until she sits down. 

Do you hear the stall horn or are you more or less flying it on?

[PMcClure]

 

1 minute ago, Shadrach said:

Do you hear the stall horn or are you more or less flying it on?

On good days, the stall horn then the wheel chirp. Followed by a smile!  

[Txbyker]

-While learning, land on a runway that you can float a long way and don't try to nail it over the numbers and force it 

-at 70, level out and float and start trimming back and it will settle down

-twist the throttle all the way out.  Any little bit will make it float/fly a long way

Russ

 

 

[kommers]

On ‎12‎/‎29‎/‎2015 at 11:46 PM, StevenL757 said:

(re-posting and editing slightly in the "Modern Mooney" forum...)

Where are you located, and have you taken any type-specific training in the airplane?

2500 hours or not, a Mooney (specifically the long bodies such as the Ovation) requires you to fly it exactly "by the numbers".  It will forgive nothing.  It is unlike flying a Cessna, Piper, Beech, or anything else related.  In the landing flare, the airplane will tell you when it no longer wants to fly.  If you are even as much as Ref+2 over the fence, you'll most likely bounce, which is a precursor to a prop strike.  You want the stall warning to come on immediately before touchdown...this is a tell-tale sign of a good Mooney landing.

In addition to any number of knowledgeable people on this forum, I suggest you find a MAPA-affiliated CFI to help you get past this hurdle so you can make peace with your airplane and your landings.

Good luck,

Steve

I think it is a bit of overstatement. I went from short body M20C to full length M20J and I didn't see any difference whatsoever in landing technique. I would cross the numbers anywhere between 75 to 90 mph and still land the plane without a bounce. I think I bounced Mooney during the landing about twice in my entire life. I do think that Mooney is forgiving the high approach speed, the key is to catch the right moment to flare and of course, to catch the right moment to pull the throttle all way back. (given your runway is long enough  )

[carusoam]

Kommers,

come to a Mooney fly-in...

Watch the LBs land.

Something is different.

Best regards,

-a-

[kommers]

I don't qualify for fly-in's until I get my IFR ticket   Besides, my new J is already showing its temper by first failing the flap switch and now the vac pump. let me repair it first .  Also, I trust my own hands more than my eyes. If I observe different technique in landing LB than M20C, chances are, I will bounce my next landing in J  . It would be like asking a centipede which leg she uses first to make the first step

 

[PMcClure]

There is something different about landing the Ovation compared to the F and J. The nose is much heavier and longer. Mooney made very slight adjustments to the elevator on the Ovation to account for this. But it still takes ALL the trim to hold the nose up and I even add more back pressure for a perfect landing. I transitioned from an F as well and can tell you they are not the same. Not all bounces are the same either. Are you bouncing off the nose due to not enough flare, skipping on the mains due to too much speed, or rebounding on the mains due to too much sink rate. There is really no way for us to help you over the internet. After a few landings with Joey Cole as teacher, I was able to land the O with confidence. Get some professional help!

[Shadrach]

2 hours ago, PMcClure said:

There is something different about landing the Ovation compared to the F and J. The nose is much heavier and longer. Mooney made very slight adjustments to the elevator on the Ovation to account for this. But it still takes ALL the trim to hold the nose up and I even add more back pressure for a perfect landing. I transitioned from an F as well and can tell you they are not the same. Not all bounces are the same either. Are you bouncing off the nose due to not enough flare, skipping on the mains due to too much speed, or rebounding on the mains due to too much sink rate. There is really no way for us to help you over the internet. After a few landings with Joey Cole as teacher, I was able to land the O with confidence. Get some professional help!

Having previously owned an F, you know that depending on load it can also run out of nose up trim on approach (usually with light fuel and no weight aft of the front seats).  

The long bodies are heavier airplanes with the same airfoils so they will obviously need to be flown faster. I am sure your advice is sound. The only thing I have a hard time believing is the sink rate/rebound bounce from being "too slow".  I fly an aircraft with about the springiest gear you could find and it will only bounce if the plane is above flying speed.

[DAVIDWH]

I guess another 2 cents won't hurt:

1. Don Kay's video, don't leave home without it.

2.Trim full back on final and I strapped 48 lbs. of ballast in the luggage compartment .(Now I can fly final trimmed for hands off) A case of oil would probably do.

3. Speed brakes deployed. (Possible placebo effect here, but she just seems more stable.)

4. Two turns of the vernier when she starts to sink, taught to me by a P51 pilot.

5. Never land on short runways.

6. Everyone is different, this is just what works for me.

Chirp, Chirp.....

[PMcClure]

4 hours ago, Shadrach said:

Having previously owned an F, you know that depending on load it can also run out of nose up trim on approach (usually with light fuel and no weight aft of the front seats).  

The long bodies are heavier airplanes with the same airfoils so they will obviously need to be flown faster. I am sure your advice is sound. The only thing I have a hard time believing is the sink rate/rebound bounce from being "too slow".  I fly an aircraft with about the springiest gear you could find and it will only bounce if the plane is above flying speed.

To be clear, I am not giving advice, other than to get professional help. Nor am I saying that flying too slow can cause a bounce. Just reporting what I do landing my O2.