Top Gun Annual

[xrs135]

I've got my annual coming up in a few months. I'm thinking about taking my M20C to Top Gun in Stockton this year.

I was just wondering who has experience with them and how much I can plan on spending for an 'average' annual. Obviously, I know there are cheaper avenues to take... But just wondering if someone has actual numbers from a Top Gun annual?

[neilpilot]

Have you asked Top Gun?

[Mooneymite]

Asking Top Gun is an excellent idea for getting the "book rate", but there's nothing like a "consummer report" to find out what it typically costs in actuality.

I have been prompted to ask the right questions about rates by being fore-warned by others.  

What better place to get the scoop than Mooneyspace?

[ArtVandelay]

The inspection rate is fixed, then add for oil, filter, etc. the rest depends on what they find.

[M20F]

1 hour ago, teejayevans said:

The inspection rate is fixed, then add for oil, filter, etc. the rest depends on what they find.

This.  The inspection is a fixed cost, what they find is the variable.  

The key is that you have a clear understanding that they prepare a squawk list of what was found in the annual and note what is airworthy and what is reccomended along with anticipated cost.  You both than agree to the work to be done from there.  

[xrs135]

2 hours ago, Mooneymite said:

Asking Top Gun is an excellent idea for getting the "book rate", but there's nothing like a "consummer report" to find out what it typically costs in actuality.

I have been prompted to ask the right questions about rates by being fore-warned by others.  

What better place to get the scoop than Mooneyspace?

Exactly! I'm aware that they have their flat cost for the annual... I'm just looking to get an idea from others what they "typically" end up spending by the time they are on their way out the door. I realize it can be a highly variable number depending on what has to be done, but I'm just looking for a ballpark figure from others.

[gsxrpilot]

I don't use TopGun as I'm to the East of the big mountains.  But where I go, the annual is about $1800 + supplies. I've typically spent between $4K and $5K after asking for specific squawks to be fixed and/or new upgrades.

[M20F]

45 minutes ago, xrs135 said:

Exactly! I'm aware that they have their flat cost for the annual... I'm just looking to get an idea from others what they "typically" end up spending by the time they are on their way out the door. I realize it can be a highly variable number depending on what has to be done, but I'm just looking for a ballpark figure from others.

Nobody can give you that because your airplane is not going to be comparable to anyone else's.  What I can tell you is once you get all maintenance issues caught your annuals become pretty painless because the plane is in good condition.  If you had 10yrs of pencil whipped annuals (not saying you did, just as example) and you take it to a top MSC it is going to potentially be a lot of dollars to make it right.  

There is also not a lot that really needs to be done in order to comply with an annual.  Mags have 15000hrs on them, no problem. Engine is 8000hrs past TBO, no problem.  Landing gear pucks are original, no problem.  The advantage of a good MSC is they can identify things you probably should fix and then it is your choice to do so or not.  This doesn't mean you have to do those things at the annual or even have the MSC do it. 

[Mooneymite]

It seems like there is always a "welcome aboard" penalty anytime you shift to a new shop because they have to do a lot of research to know, for sure, what's been done/not done.  When an IA signs off the annual he is attesting to conformity to the type certificate + any STC's, etc.  Once the shop has confirmed conformity, the next year is not so research-intensive.

Obviously, IA's charge shop time for that research even though they're not turning wrenches on your plane.

Staying with the same shop is good, but if it misses something, it may well continue missing it becasue it builds on previous year's research.

[DonMuncy]

Just now, Mooneymite said:

It seems like there is always a "welcome aboard" penalty anytime you shift to a new shop because they have to do a lot of research to know, for sure, what's been done/not done.  When an IA signs off the annual he is attesting to conformity to the type certificate + any STC's, etc.  Once the shop has confirmed conformity, the next year is not so research-intensive.

Obviously, IA's charge shop time for that research even though they're not turning wrenches on your plane.

Staying with the same shop is good, but if it misses something, it may well continue missing it becasue it builds on previous year's research.

I also think there are certain things that certain MSCs are particularly attuned to. There are some that are hell-bent on making sure every placard is in place, where others don't worry much about them. So anytime you change, you are going to get caught on what I used to call "the kick of the week". Or more aptly here. "the kick of the MSC". This is a downside of trying to get a new set of eyes checking your plane.

[bradp]

Erik I had an annual done at Top Gun in 2012 as part of a PPI that we turned into an annual.  This was the first MSC annual that the plane had had had since 2005. I'm happy to email you the invoice to get an idea.  pm me your email if interested.  

 

Brad

[OR75]

Here is a suggestion for you:

the annual inspection being just that, an inspection, ask for an annual inspection with no repairs and that should be a flat fee with no surprise . (A shop that cannot commit and stick to the estimate for an inspection would not get my trust and business) . You should be given a list a squawks that would need to be addressed. If you are not happy , find another shop. 

If you go that route , my advice is also to leave yourself some time to fly to another location. 

 

[carqwik]

You get what you you pay for (most of the time)...My plane has been going to Top Gun for the last 14 years for its annual...largest job was the crankshaft R/R for the TIO-540.  The fact I keep going back should tell you something.  However, it's not cheap....and the plane runs like a top!

[Jetlag]

I brought my plane to TopGun for the first annual after purchasing.  A good experience.  Before my annual I had a break down and Mark at TopGun walked me through the repair  on the phone so I could make it home.  The annual inspection cost was fixed.  Total estimate was about $11,000, more than half just being small non airworthy items.   The plane had been maintained by another MSC, but without attention to detail. 

[Guest]

14 hours ago, M20F said:

Nobody can give you that because your airplane is not going to be comparable to anyone else's.  What I can tell you is once you get all maintenance issues caught your annuals become pretty painless because the plane is in good condition.  If you had 10yrs of pencil whipped annuals (not saying you did, just as example) and you take it to a top MSC it is going to potentially be a lot of dollars to make it right.  

There is also not a lot that really needs to be done in order to comply with an annual.  Mags have 15000hrs on them, no problem. Engine is 8000hrs past TBO, no problem.  Landing gear pucks are original, no problem.  The advantage of a good MSC is they can identify things you probably should fix and then it is your choice to do so or not.  This doesn't mean you have to do those things at the annual or even have the MSC do it. 

I trying to follow the logic.  You take the plane to a MSC (a specialist) who does the inspection and points out all the things which need repair and attention.  Then you take the plane back to the A&P who missed all the items in the first place for him to correct the things he missed.  

Clarence

[M20F]

3 hours ago, M20Doc said:

I trying to follow the logic.  You take the plane to a MSC (a specialist) who does the inspection and points out all the things which need repair and attention.  Then you take the plane back to the A&P who missed all the items in the first place for him to correct the things he missed.  

Clarence

I listed it as an option.  As Jetlag points out in his post you can get a very extensive listing of items some of which may need immediate addressing, others may not and you can defer to a later date if you need to spread the expense or wanted to minimize your down time.  You don't need to do everything immediately and you certainly could fly home and do some of them with a local A&P/I or do yourself under supervision of your A&P/I.  It is an option and it depends on the circumstances.

The fact one mechanic finds something another didn't does not make the first mechanic incompetent.  I take my plane some years to Maxwell and some years do owner assist with my local A&P.  Both are very good, both have differing expertise, and both bitch about the other guy every time I switch quick to point out things they think the other guy missed or got wrong (and they both have made some errors).  I like both of them, feel I get good value from both of them, and I like having somebody crosscheck not only the work done but often times the recommendation to do a specific piece of work.  

[DaV8or]

The first annual I payed for was with Top Gun. It seemed natural because they are so close to me. I had used them for my first oil change and also for my alternator install with mixed feelings about the customer care and quality of service. Anyhow, I did the annual with Top Gun because felt like going to LASAR was just too big of PITA, but was turned off by their no owner assist, actually no owner watch policy. They told me to drop off the keys and get lost. They would call me when it was done.

That annual cost $5324.12 in 2011. Not too far off from all the others that came after it. $4000 - $5000. No matter what, my annuals always cost this much. Anyhow, I chose to go to LASAR the next year and was much happier and the owner assist was well worth it too me. They did tell me on that first LASAR annual that my gear was rigged all wrong and that I was lucky to not have had a gear collapse! Top Gun was the last guys to touch it. Anyhow, I haven't been back to to Top Gun even though it is just next door.

Having said all that, my last annual with LASAR didn't leave a great taste in my mouth either. I opted not to do the owner assist this year, so they came and picked it up and I went and got it. I felt like they went a little out of their way to find things to pad the bill with. They didn't give me the usual list of "have to fixes" and "optional fixes" they just went ahead and did it all. They did consult with me on some of it and I did agree to much of it, but they did some things I might have declined. Anyhow another $4500 annual.

LASAR has changed too. They have lost most of the mechanics I used to work with which were the ones I respected most. It seems like a shop in flux now. I may, or may not go back for the annual next year. I am seriously considering doing owner assist right in my own hangar with the local IA I've been working with. I will save a ton of money. Of course there is a ton of work to do and it will be mostly all me doing it. We shall see...

[FlyDave]

I have had Top Gun do a number of things to my planes and always found Mark to be an honest and up-front guy. He and his mechanics know what they're doing and do the job right -  no cutting corners. Mark has also been very supportive when I call or stop by asking questions and looking at things.

I have dealt with LASAR on a number of questions and parts and for the most part had an excellent experience. Last Saturday Paul Lowen met me at LASAR to look at my arm rest which had broken. I left the arm rest with him that day and it is now ready to be re-installed. Paul and his crew, just as Mark at Top Gun, have been very helpful whether on the phone or in person.

If I was going to drop my plane off for annual somewhere I wouldn't have a problem with either of these shops. But I prefer owner assisted annuals and do that with the shop on my field that I know and trust. LASAR will do the owner assisted annuals but as DaV8or stated, it's a bit of a pain to get there for the owner assist.