Turbo's and Mountains

[Rookie]

I live in South Louisiana, is there a route that gets to Montrose Co. with an F without a Turbo?

 

[M20F]

Several people here have had their non-Turbo F's/J's/C's/etc. over 14000ft so with O2 you can make it direct.  Just looking at the VFR chart though going a bit south at 10K appears to work without going much out of the way (look by KFMN).

[Rookie]

The first thing that come from unexperienced Pilot's is that if you go West over the Rockies you must have a Turbo.

[Shadrach]

3 minutes ago, Rookie said:

The first thing that come from unexperienced Pilot's is that if you go West over the Rockies you must have a Turbo.

It certainly helps! Even the low power N/A Mooneys have very respectable service ceilings and climb, but one must understand that advanced planning and weather flexibility are part flying in the high country. A turbo gives you the ability to maintain a reasonable climb gradient up to O2 altitudes.  if one understands the limitations of the airplane and plans for them, high country airports are accessible.  The last time I was at Telluride, I walked the tie downs to see what kind of aircraft were based there. It really was no different than any other airport. Were there more TSIO aircraft? Yes. Was it by a large margin? No.  Plenty of NA, 4 cylinder Cessnas and Pipers on the ramp.  Call Montrose and ask about flight training. I'd bet that someone is conducting training flights in a C172.

[N201MKTurbo]

I operated out of Denver with my NA M20F for 8 years and flew over the Rockies almost every day. The shortest way would be Pueblo, Blue Mesa, Montrose. It will take you over some low (relatively speaking) rolling hills. The hills top out at about 11,000 and don't generate much turbulence. then you fly over the reservoir and into Montrose. You can avoid all high terrain by making an end run to the west, but it will add about 100 miles to your trip. Your Mooney will make this trip without issue.  

[Rookie]

Yea I'm lo

Just now, N201MKTurbo said:

I operated out of Denver with my NA M20F for 8 years and flew over the Rockies almost every day. The shortest way would be Pueblo, Blue Mesa, Montrose. It will take you over some low (relatively speaking) rolling hills. The hills top out at about 11,000 and don't generate much turbulence. then you fly over the reservoir and into Montrose. You can avoid all high terrain by making an end run to the west, but it will add about 100 miles to your trip. Your Mooney will make this trip without issue.  

Thank You!!

[Oscar Avalle]

11 minutes ago, pmccand said:

Nobody asked, but here are the Mountain flying tips this Mississippi flatlander uses for flying to Utah in the winter:

1.  NEVER fly into a blind canyon especially up the center of the canyon. leave enough room to turn around.

2. Approach ridges at a 45 degree angle until clearing the ridge

3. Fly straight and level at planned altitude approaching mountains.  If horizon seems to be growing taller in your windshield, you may not clear the ridge.

4. WATCH for LENTICULAR CLOUDS and STAY THE HELL AWAY from them.

5. Know where the leeward side of the mountain is.

6.  DENSITY ALTITUDE - keep a Koch chart (not at this time of year)

7. Weather changes FAST.  My rule is "clouds in the sky, don't fly" (that's just the weatherchicken in me)

8. Ceilings are given in feet above the AIRPORT, and not necessarily AGL along your route of flight.

9. Forecast for light snow flurries?  You can't see ANYTHING in a light snow flurry especially if the ground and sky are the same white.

10.  Be prepared for the smoothest cross country ride in the winter...or be prepared to wait several days till the weather breaks.

Nice recommendations! I have been flying around mountains for the last 3 years. My field is at 5000 feet MSL... and density altitude is always an issue. However, my experience with my M20C was very good. She flies nicely up to 14k and cruises well. You just have to be careful with O2 and weather, in particular turbulence and winds. Otherwise relax and enjoy the view.  

[N201MKTurbo]

I've known some pilots who draw a line on a chart and won't deviate from it for anything. When flying around the mountains, especially VFR (which you will be) you are allowed to fly around them, you don't necessarily have to go over them.

[garytex]

 And once you get there, take mountain flying lesson, they are always fun and interesting .

[TTaylor]

11 hours ago, pmccand said:

Nobody asked, but here are the Mountain flying tips this Mississippi flatlander uses for flying to Utah in the winter:

1.  NEVER fly into a blind canyon especially up the center of the canyon. leave enough room to turn around.

2. Approach ridges at a 45 degree angle until clearing the ridge

3. Fly straight and level at planned altitude approaching mountains.  If horizon seems to be growing taller in your windshield, you may not clear the ridge.

4. WATCH for LENTICULAR CLOUDS and STAY THE HELL AWAY from them.

5. Know where the leeward side of the mountain is.

6.  DENSITY ALTITUDE - keep a Koch chart (not at this time of year)

7. Weather changes FAST.  My rule is "clouds in the sky, don't fly" (that's just the weatherchicken in me)

8. Ceilings are given in feet above the AIRPORT, and not necessarily AGL along your route of flight.

9. Forecast for light snow flurries?  You can't see ANYTHING in a light snow flurry especially if the ground and sky are the same white.

10.  Be prepared for the smoothest cross country ride in the winter...or be prepared to wait several days till the weather breaks.

N201MKTurbo has the most experience in the area, his route in is a good one.  I fly an F in the intermountain west all the time without an issue.  I would not follow number 4 above so firmly.  Lenticular clouds should be recognized and respected but often they are not even visible for areas of wave lift.  For a non-turbo Mooney wave lift can be your friend, I use it very often to gain altitude when needed.  You can often get 500 feet per minute or more vertical climb rates.  Just recognize when you are in the lift and turn parallel to the lift line until you gain as much as you needed.

If you are flying out west you will want to have an oxygen system so you can fly at 13 to 15K so crossing the passes is much more of a pleasant experience.  You never want to be flying low into the leeward side of a ridge.        

[Rookie]

9 hours ago, garytex said:

 And once you get there, take mountain flying lesson, they are always fun and interesting .

Any recommendations on a instructor?

[rbuck]

I don't know any instructors in Montrose, but I do know that there are mountain instructors at Boulder (BDU) and Jeffco (BJC-er, Metro). That would be a stop on your way I suppose, but both airports are a little farther north than your intended route. 

 

[kmyfm20s]

Call Black Canyon Aviation in Montrose. Super helpful FBO and they will stear you the right direction. I talk to them last time o was there about it and they had a lot of information.

[garytex]

On December 8, 2015 at 7:57 AM, Rookie said:

Any recommendations on a instructor?

 sorry, no,  last one I took was many years ago in Drango Colorado. If you live in the south,  Durango is a great place to take a mountain flying lesson because you get to fly right up to the edge of the mountains and land, and then you take your lesson. Besides which it has a nice steam train to ride and some hot springs to soak around in. 

[Rookie]

On 12/11/2015 at 11:32 PM, garytex said:

 sorry, no,  last one I took was many years ago in Drango Colorado. If you live in the south,  Durango is a great place to take a mountain flying lesson because you get to fly right up to the edge of the mountains and land, and then you take your lesson. Besides which it has a nice steam train to ride and some hot springs to soak around in. 

Durango looks like a good point to fly into. 

[gsxrpilot]

We're taking our M20C to Durango on Saturday... weather permitting. We've been in there once before, it was summertime and Density Altitude was over 8K. No problem then but should be easier this time.

[Rookie]

I was just looking at the weather in Durando.

I hope it clears up for you guys.

[garytex]

 There are two airports around Durango.  The commercial one is called Durango La Plata. The runway is wide and very long, has kind of expensive fuel and is OK but not particularly friendly. It's slightly easier to get a rent car there but more expensive.

You can call the Enterprise in Durango and they will deliver a rent car to you at Animas air Park which is the much narrower,  and much closer to town community airport which has always been very welcoming. There was, and may still be a little flight school there that's where I got my mountain flying lesson.  

The steam train runs up to Silverton and back in the summer and about halfway up and back in the winter.  The Hot Springs is called Trimble Hot Springs, which consists of an Olympic size pool, it's barely warm enough to swim in and then multiple successively smaller and hotter pools.  Nice ambience, open fairly late into the evening.

 There was a great Prairie dog colony off 20 mi to the west but it was wiped out by bubonic plague Last fall.  :-(  I understand there are still some around Cortes and I've done fly and shoot trips to there.

[The-sky-captain]

As mentioned Durango La Plata is easy in and easy out. I was there last August and departed at gross weight. No issues as the runway is long and the terrain is flat if departing to the south.

[CCowboy]

Durango has been our home away from home for 15 yrs.  Unless there is a winter storm in progress, should be no issue for a flatlander getting in.  Review your density altitude and performance data.  Montrose is good, but there is a 10,000' ridge to the west that you must go over.  It can collect a lot of low clouds (ice) with Wx systems.  There will be a higher probability of getting into/out of KDRO if a system has just passed.  As KMTJ is the main airport for Telluride, the fees/costs are reflected. Fuel, rental cars, are significantly less at KDRO.  Contact me directly if you want any insights into southwest Colorado.  Plan on being there for Christmas.

[jlunseth]

If you really want to avoid the ridges you could fly around the southern toe of the Sangre de Christos between Albuquerque and Santa Fe, and then work your way north.  Most of the area northwest of that point is big flat valleys.  They are high altitude valleys, but your highest altitude might be 12k just before you get to Montrose County.  You would have to go a long way out of your way though.  Years ago I flew up to Naturita from ABQ in a normally aspirated C-55 Baron, it was not a bad route, but as I said, it is out of your way.

There are a couple of points no one ever seems to put on their mountain flying list, and they are pertinent to long range cruisers such as what you intend.  One is that especially when you cross the ridges, you should always elect the Victor airways, even if it means flying out of your way.  They are generally well established routes that cross the best/lowest areas, so if you take the Victor you might be looking at 12k, but 10 degrees to your left you would cross a peak at 16 or 17.  Many of the Victors take a diagonal path across the Rockies, and that is just because of the geography, most of the good routes are SW->NE.  Use them.  It is not untypical, if you are crossing west to east, for the standard route to go south first quite a ways to a VOR or other waypoint, and then turn back NE to get on the airway.

The other thing to be aware of relates to the same thing - using those Victor routes.  Your climb rate in an NA is going to be fairly poor, so you will need time to climb before you get to the high spot in the route.  Very often the winds down in the valley, at the airport elevation where you take off, won't be too bad, but when you get into your climb you might find strong westerly winds blowing you at the ridge faster than you expected, they might get into the 50-75 knot range.  They may or may not be turbulent, that is a separate issue.  But if you have a poor climb rate and you picked let's say a GPS route perpendicular across the ridge at a high point, you calculated your climb rate, thought you had plenty of space, and found yourself closing on the ridge about 1/3 faster than you expected, it can be unpleasant and overly exciting.  The cure, again, is to fly that standard Victor airway route that might take you out of the way at first, but gives you the climb time you will need, and then the lowest available passage over the ridge. 

[gsxrpilot]

As of now, our plans are to fly to KDRO on Saturday and stay the week. The weather for Saturday looks fine, but we are making arrangements to stay longer if weather moves in and disrupts departure plans.

Earlier this year, in the heat of the summer, we flew into KDRO from the south. This time I'm thinking of coming in from the southeast crossing over Tres Ritos just south of AngleFire and north of the Pecos Wilderness area.  We'll plan to be at 12,500 which should give us plenty of clearance through the short pass.

[bonal]

Plus one on the Victors. 

[Immelman]

A Mooney can make it across the Rockies no problem without a turbo... particularly in winter.

But here are my big tips:

1. You are going VFR. Or maybe file IFR you want, but it will be good clear VMC weather. No fooling around with ice.

2. Beyond scouting out lower terrain to cross: You dont fly THROUGH passes, you fly well OVER them and the surrounding terrain. If that pass says 11,000 onthe chart with 13+ peaks next door, I am going over it around 15+. Your bird in cold air will have no issues getting up there.

3. Use supplemental O2, no if's and's or but's!

 

[peevee]

You'll make it easily, it can be done at 12,500 if you fly the right passes. People take 172s into Leadville...

 

Here's the thing, the winds this time of year are terrible for mountain flying. Greater than 25kts out of the west at mtn peak height and I park it. CPA says 30 but personally at 20 I think real hard about it and at 25 I'm out.

Here's a FREE mountain route map https://www.codot.gov/programs/aeronautics/request-form

more data http://coloradopilots.org/mtnfly_passes.asp

TAD to la veta pass to north pass to HBU to MTJ looks good to me...

PS don't fly I70 expecting it to be the low land, it isn't. There's a tunnel and loveland pass surprises someone about every 3 years....

 

Thank you for researching first, you got good advice in this thread.