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Engine failure


frcabot

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Nice airmanship!!

Give Ken at Lycon in Visalia a call or Chris At Pacific Continental in LA a call. Both are awesome shops!! The good news is you are half way between 2 of th best shops on the west coast!!!

With 2100 TSO on the engine I would count my blessings and overhaul the engine. 

Bummer it it had to happen with pax onboard. 

Ping me when you finish your trip to Santa Monica. I'll buy lunch!! Love to here the entire story. 

-Matt

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10 hours ago, Yetti said:

Which is kind of like a factory re-manufactured. A bunch of used parts checked if they are within tolerance and put together.  But since it is the Lycoming they get got 0 time the engine.

The only reason they get to Zero the hour meter is they have no way of knowing the hours on the parts.

Clarence

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30 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

The only reason they get to Zero the hour meter is they have no way of knowing the hours on the parts.

Clarence

With a factory reman you get the roller tappets and most likely a new case.  The engine is to factory new limits which usually means lots of new parts

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1 hour ago, MB65E said:

Nice airmanship!!

Give Ken at Lycon in Visalia a call or Chris At Pacific Continental in LA a call. Both are awesome shops!! The good news is you are half way between 2 of th best shops on the west coast!!!

With 2100 TSO on the engine I would count my blessings and overhaul the engine. 

Bummer it it had to happen with pax onboard. 

Ping me when you finish your trip to Santa Monica. I'll buy lunch!! Love to here the entire story. 

-Matt

It's only 2100 TSO because the logbook says. The bottom end has 400 and the top is 1000.  If you top it, it's 400 on the bottom and zero on the top .

 

It's like my favorite axe, it's 100 years old and the handle was replaced 3 times, the head twice. 

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1 hour ago, jetdriven said:

It's only 2100 TSO because the logbook says. The bottom end has 400 and the top is 1000.  If you top it, it's 400 on the bottom and zero on the top .

 

It's like my favorite axe, it's 100 years old and the handle was replaced 3 times, the head twice. 

That's one of my favorite jokes - but I start out saying "this is George Washington's axe..."

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2 hours ago, mcpilot said:

With a factory reman you get the roller tappets and most likely a new case.  The engine is to factory new limits which usually means lots of new parts

Maybe but you don't know because they don't tell you.  In terms of $$$'s you can get all new parts and a lot of other stuff when you do it yourself for a lot less.  I just can't see an compelling economic advantage to going with the factory and from a piece of mind state I like to know exactly what is in the engine.  Doing mine we made a list of everything that went in either new or old including all the numbers so I know now exactly what I have.  You just don't get that on a factory overhaul.

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I got a quote from an overhaul shop here in the east  and it was more than a factory overhaul and without roller tappets and the new case.  I guess for some it may be a tomato vs tomahtoe kind of thing..  If I get a factory OH I get a warranty.

6 minutes ago, M20F said:

Maybe but you don't know because they don't tell you.  In terms of $$$'s you can get all new parts and a lot of other stuff when you do it yourself for a lot less.  I just can't see an compelling economic advantage to going with the factory and from a piece of mind state I like to know exactly what is in the engine.  Doing mine we made a list of everything that went in either new or old including all the numbers so I know now exactly what I have.  You just don't get that on a factory overhaul.

 

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1 hour ago, mcpilot said:

I got a quote from an overhaul shop here in the east  and it was more than a factory overhaul and without roller tappets and the new case.  I guess for some it may be a tomato vs tomahtoe kind of thing..  If I get a factory OH I get a warranty.

 

Almost all engine builders offer a warranty.  I'd be very curious to here the actual numbers that you were quoted. IO360 overhauls range from about $15-$25K  0 time is marketing myth. A lycoming factory rebuilt with 0 time is a "Frankenengine" of sorts, and there's nothing wrong with that as long as folks understand that the basic components of the engine are comprised of collection of parts sourced from core returns. It would be perfectly legitimate for a factory rebuilt to go out the door with a 9000hr crank, but no one could know because Lyc and Cont do not serialize their parts. So it gets 0 time because there is no way of knowing actual hours, the FAA allows only the manufacture to do this. I read somewhere that Transport Canada does not allow for 0 timed engines and that engines made in this manner in that country get the moniker "total time unknown".

It is a tomatoe/tomahtoe kind of thing except for:

With a field OH if you like your cam and crank, you can keep your cam and crank (unless of course it fails to meet specs).

With a field OH you know exactly how much time in service your internals have (that is a forever unknowable with a Factory Rebuilt).

With a factory rebuilt, you will pay 20-40% more for the privileged of calling your used engine internals "0 time".

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1 hour ago, mcpilot said:

I got a quote from an overhaul shop here in the east  and it was more than a factory overhaul and without roller tappets and the new case.  I guess for some it may be a tomato vs tomahtoe kind of thing..  If I get a factory OH I get a warranty.

 

 

The poster here said "do it yourself" meaning he sends parts out and gets yellow tags etc...  No warranty there...

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1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

Almost all engine builders offer a warranty.  I'd be very curious to here the actual numbers that you were quoted. IO360 overhauls range from about $15-$25K  0 time is marketing myth. A lycoming factory rebuilt with 0 time is a "Frankenengine" of sorts, and there's nothing wrong with that as long as folks understand that the basic components of the engine are comprised of collection of parts sourced from core returns. It would be perfectly legitimate for a factory rebuilt to go out the door with a 9000hr crank, but no one could know because Lyc and Cont do not serialize their parts. So it gets 0 time because there is no way of knowing actual hours, the FAA allows only the manufacture to do this. I read somewhere that Transport Canada does not allow for 0 timed engines and that engines made in this manner in that country get the moniker "total time unknown".

It is a tomatoe/tomahtoe kind of thing except for:

With a field OH if you like your cam and crank, you can keep your cam and crank (unless of course it fails to meet specs).

With a field OH you know exactly how much time in service your internals have (that is a forever unknowable with a Factory Rebuilt).

With a factory rebuilt, you will pay 20-40% more for the privileged of calling your used engine internals "0 time".

The numbers I was quoted:

IO360 A3B6

Lycoming overhaul (not reman) was $28,500  with new cam, roller tappets, new case.  Any parts that do not meet limits are replaced with a NEW part.  

 

OH Shop $29,800  to start. That also includes a new cam.  They cannot offer roller tappets and will not use a new case.  If your case is bad.. you pay extra.

 

These shops also used to reuse cylinders... How many of those do you think made it to TBO?

 

Why not have the latest technology with the roller tappets and remove one of the biggest causes of engine failure?

 

As far as reusing a cam?  That is one of the highest stressed items in our engines. I want my engine to have the best chance of going to TBO again, I would replace.  Most of the large OH shops will not reuse a cam or tappets.

 

If you have your small shop do the OH or do an owner assisted one what warranty do you get?  

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5 minutes ago, mcpilot said:

The poster here said "do it yourself" meaning he sends parts out and gets yellow tags etc...  No warranty there...

Not true a lot of shops offer warranties on accessories and cylinders if they don't do the overhaul.  Popular Grove would be one example http://poplargroveairmotive.com/warranty/

As Ross stated the biggest issues with a factory overhaul is you do not get your engine back, you get somebody else's back which to me is very disconcerting because you have no idea what the condition is on any of the parts other than "minimum required'.  If you send in a motor that has a crank with 1hr on it they will take that crank out and resell that individual part for a lot of money because it is way above tolerance.  They will then take a crank out of a box which meets minimums and put it in your motor.  You also pay a lot more for this.  Certainly doing a field overhaul isn't for everyone but there are a lot of good shops like Zephyr, Popular Grove, etc. that do overhauls and they are a pile of money cheaper than Lycoming and you get much better feedback on what the motor looked like when they got it so you know if you need to look at other things along with a list of everything that went into it and the details of those parts.

Just my opinion 

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BTW  Let's get back to the original reason for this post:  A stuck valve

 

What do you think caused that?  The most likely cause is cylinders subjected to high ICP.  The only parameter we have to monitor for that is CHT.  That means at some point the power settings were in the dreaded "red box"  The only way to be sure that the engine is not subjected to high ICP is with a multi problem/parameter engine monitor.  

I have been flying Mooney's for over 15 years and it seems like stuck valves are a fairly common occurrence.  I think it would be great to learn from the OP experience and prevent these unexpected emergency landing from being as frequent as they are.....

 

 

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On November 10, 2015 at 11:24:05 AM, mcpilot said:

The numbers I was quoted:

IO360 A3B6

Lycoming overhaul (not reman) was $28,500  with new cam, roller tappets, new case.  Any parts that do not meet limits are replaced with a NEW part.  

 

OH Shop $29,800  to start. That also includes a new cam.  They cannot offer roller tappets and will not use a new case.  If your case is bad.. you pay extra.

 

These shops also used to reuse cylinders... How many of those do you think made it to TBO?

 

Why not have the latest technology with the roller tappets and remove one of the biggest causes of engine failure?

 

As far as reusing a cam?  That is one of the highest stressed items in our engines. I want my engine to have the best chance of going to TBO again, I would replace.  Most of the large OH shops will not reuse a cam or tappets.

 

If you have your small shop do the OH or do an owner assisted one what warranty do you get?  

Did you seriously just say that most overhaul shops will not reuse a cam? Neither overhauls nor factory rebuilds have traditionally gotten new cams. I am not sure if the roller tappets require a different cam, so perhaps all conversions are getting new cams at this time. You do realalize that there is a thriving cottage industry based on testing and regrinding/resurfacing serviceable cams and cranks for overhaulers (I think 1 in 20 residents of Oklahoma works in such a shop). What exactly is Lycoming making in the house these days? We had our engine field OHd back in 2000,  we considered a factory overhaul at the time. I remember being surprised at that time that Lycoming were only making connecting rods and cases. Everything else was subcontracted.  I also know that prior to roller tappets every Lycoming factory overhaul or factory rebuilt engine came with the cam and crank that came from their stock of serviceable cores.

 I don't know if someone has deliberately misinformed you, or if you've just made some assumptions. But many of your notions about aircraft engines and aircraft engine overhauls are simply not true. 

I'm curious to know why you think a roller tappet removes the possibility of the classic Lycoming cam failure. What data do you have the support this? How does a roller tappet prevent corroded cam from spalling?

Riddle me this. The cam & crank in my 67F are original. They currently have 2990hrs and were reused when we OHd with new cylinders in 2000 at 1880hrs. Prior to overhaul the engine was positively abused by my father at times… No preheats, often long periods of inactivity (as much is 18 months without turning). The engine was run under a regimen of all of the old wives tails of the 60s: pull it back to 25" for climb. 25" x 2500 50ROP cruise. No oil filter for the first half of its life.

And yet despite being run hard and hot at times, running with unfiltered oil and having been subjected to long periods of inactivity, the cam and crank were in great shape and ready to be retuned to service after a quick trip to Oklahoma.

 Why would I give up donuts for an unknown? I know several new Lycoming engines that have $hit the bed within 10 years of service. I have a family member who lost an IO320 that was less than 10 years old and had less than 1000 hours on it. It was flown to >250 hours in the preceding 24 months. There are members of this forum who've had cams self-destruct on relatively new engines for seemingly no reason. Certainly not age or lack of use.   

To the OP, choose carefully when deciding how to go about replacing an engine. There is a lot to understand about the process. If the cam looks good, I would leave that 400hr bottom end alone. Then it's narrowed down to deciding to replace just the offending cyl or replacing them all.  That's a decision best made after thoroughly examining the failed cylinder. 

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9 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

 

I am telling you that a Lycoming factory overhaul gets a new cam period.  The roller tappets do decrease cam wear and are specific to the roller tappets.  Lycoming has NEVER re-used cams in their remans or overhauls.  The shop I spoke with included a new cam in their quote as well.. I have been a pilot for 31 years and am pretty familiar with the topic...

 

Perhaps you can show me evidence to the contrary?

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This si for the standard service, does not have to be first run.  They do not wan another shops field OH though.. maybe another reason to go with Lycoming....

 

Factory New, Rebuilt or Overhauled. 
Exchange engine core must not have been field overhauled since it last shipped from the Factory.

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3 minutes ago, teejayevans said:

lycoming requires the engine be new, never overhauled, and less than 20 years old to get the credit for the exchanged core, I assume the prices quoted include a exchanged core.

 

That is to get a reman at the OH price...  

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53 minutes ago, mcpilot said:

Perhaps you can show me evidence to the contrary?

http://www.aviationpros.com/article/10388987/a-peek-inside-the-lycoming-engine

The article linked is an interview with Paul Lefevre the now retired Director of sales and Marketing at Lycoming.

Lefevre says, "If somebody wants their own engine back, it takes a little longer, but we will overhaul their engine and send it back to them"

I'm not sure if Lycoming still offers the same engine overhaul option.

"Because of the extent of parts which are discarded and replaced with new as a matter of practice, however, a customer has to understand that they are only essentially getting their crankshaft, camshaft, and crankcase back. Everything else is replaced with new or overhauled components."

Teardown 
"At this point, we also pull all of the cylinder components, including the barrels and heads and throw them into a scrap pile regardless of their condition. We also scrap all hardware (to include case bolts), valve covers, gaskets, valve springs, harnesses, pushrods and tubes, etc. We really don't reuse anything except for major components (crankshaft, camshaft, engine cases, and connecting rods)," he explains.

If Lycoming is using new camshafts for overhauled and rebuilt engines it's a relatively recent development likely with corresponding to the switch to roller tappets.

I am dubious on the merits of roller tappets in this engine. I think it will make little if any difference in longevity and has the potential to hasten camshaft failure.

It is my belief that it was largely a marketing move by Lycoming to help differentiate themselves from better value options. There's a reason there not allowing overhaulers to make the conversion.

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55 minutes ago, teejayevans said:

lycoming requires the engine be new, never overhauled, and less than 20 years old to get the credit for the exchanged core, I assume the prices quoted include a exchanged core.

 

Not true.  Lycoming is happy to take a factory rebuilt or overhauled engine on exchange.

Exchange Engine Core Requirements:

Factory New, Rebuilt or Overhauled.
Exchange engine core must not have been field overhauled since it last shipped from the Factory.
A purchase order for a replacement engine must be received from an authorized Lycoming Distributor within twenty (20) years of the date written on the self adhesive logbook entry sticker supplied with the exchange engine core when it was originally shipped from the Lycoming Factory as a new, rebuilt or overhauled engine. Lycoming form number 777, 2481 or 2480 will be notated on the sticker.
Exchange engine core must comply with the Lycoming Engines exchange engine core policy as communicated in the latest edition of Lycoming Service Letter 250.

 

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3 hours ago, mcpilot said:

OK.. With a Lycoming Oh you get a new cam now because of the roller tappets... Your call which route you want to take but I want the roller tappets and new cam and case...

And I am thankful for early adopters such as yourself! I look forward to learning how they hold up.

The concern for me is that Lycoming answered a question the engine never asked... Cams and lifters are not failing due to the extreme pressure between lifter and lobe. They are failing due to corrosion caused by lack of use and or sub par metallurgy (my money is on the latter). Think about what you'd used to clear a rock from your driveway. Would you sweep it with a blade or run over it with a steam roller?  I have concerns about how roller tappet engine will tolerate any particulate suspended in the oil.

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According to what my engine shop has told me Lycoming is the only one able to mod a case for roller tappets, and the only one allowed to inspect and reuse the same roller tappets after a prop strike.  Do you not think that they re use them at overhaul.

I've also do a cam replacement on a factory engine, the old cam he broke get me was Overhauled and reused as evidenced by the serial numbers engrave in it.  This from a 43 year engine builder. 

The only thing new that is guaranteed from Lycoming is the log book.  Proceed with caution.

Clarence

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OK guys.. I am open minded..

 

I have a first run engine.. 1995 was the year it was made.  How would you all go about an OH?  New cylinders?  keep the A3B6D?  How much should I budget?

 

I am not currently in need of an OH just curious...

 

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