Eraaen Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 So, I've been digging for a bit.. But one of you guys will certainly know. I have a 1980 231K/Rocket (not that the Rocket part should matter) My question is.. Is it legal to remove the rear seat and fly it like a wagon. Or, is it a structural part of the air frame like I know it is in many other aircraft. Mine is one solid back attached on either side, not the split fold down version. the attachment points look like they'd be easily undone (although I have not attempted this) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 (edited) The back seat bottom includes part of the wing spar. Taking that out would be odd... The seat back is removable with some effort.... 1) Bryan had posted details on how to choose hardware that would make the job easier...(Based on his very red, off-road, M20C) 2) Weight and balance updates will be important to know and use. 3) Somebody else can fill in the technical legal details if there are any. I am only a PP, not a mechanic. My seats fold down as a factory option. He seat cushions come out to allow the folding action... Best regards, -a- Edited November 4, 2015 by carusoam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M20F Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 The J I know has some details in its POH for rear seat removal, not sure on the K. In short if the POH doesn't allow for it technically you can't without a lot of paperwork. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSMooniac Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 It is not structural. Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M20F Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 It is not structural. Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk That doesn't matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSMooniac Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 It removes the most important consideration from the equation so that it becomes a paperwork exercise. Some planes have structural instrument panels (ours don't) and it makes it much more difficult to replace it as an example since you need to get a DER involved. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M20F Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 It removes the most important consideration from the equation so that it becomes a paperwork exercise. Some planes have structural instrument panels (ours don't) and it makes it much more difficult to replace it as an example since you need to get a DER involved. Fair enough I misunderstood your post to imply you could. Personally I wouldn't lose sleep flying around with my rear seat being removed but technically you can't. It is sort of like the alternate air thread where the guy was missing the placard. Technically that plane has been unairworthy for years but I highly doubt it would ever be a real issue. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eraaen Posted November 5, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 5, 2015 The J I know has some details in its POH for rear seat removal, not sure on the K. In short if the POH doesn't allow for it technically you can't without a lot of paperwork. So, I'm one of those guys who always forgets.. I have a POH.. Duh, I was pouring through web, maint books etc. Here is what my POH says.for the Baggage Compartment: The baggage compartment...(etc. etc.)... Additional cargo space may be made available by removing the passenger seat back attaching bolts at the top and bottom of the seat back. Sounds like Mooney says it's okay to fly like this. No mention of weather it needs to be installed for flight or not. But, it's not specific. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CCowboy Posted November 5, 2015 Report Share Posted November 5, 2015 I have modified the rear seat on occasions to carry skis on my 79 231. Just remove the top two bolts and fold the seat forward. Also helps to take out the bottom seat cushion to allow the back seat panel to lie flatter. Removing the lower bolts is a hassle and not required, just us them as a pivot point for the back panel. Removing and reattaching the upper bolts is a 5 min job as is removing the lower cushion. Use the belts for securing cargo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bennett Posted November 5, 2015 Report Share Posted November 5, 2015 When I had a 1980 231, (261 conversion), Paul at LASAR made up a set of articulating hinges that allowed the seat back to fold down, and lay flat -almost level with the baggage compartment floor. We had the seat back upholstered to match the baggage compartment carpet. Made a great platform for all my survival gear. Sometimes I would carry the seat backs in the baggage compartment if I thought i might carry passengers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rainman Posted November 5, 2015 Report Share Posted November 5, 2015 How is the back bench seat cushion attached? I'd like to fold mine down sometimes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthonydesmet Posted November 9, 2015 Report Share Posted November 9, 2015 Jugs, let me know but I thought I PM'd you a PDF on rear seat fold down conversion and the modifications I eventually made to the PDF process. Let me know if you didn't get it, but pretty painless. I now get a full grown German shepherd and a chow in the back plus a couple bags for my wife and I. Or a full Tri-bike plus race wheels minus the dogs. I also keep all rear seat equipment in the plane so I can convert to carry 3+ pax if I am on a cross country in addition to no weight and balance changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSMooniac Posted November 9, 2015 Report Share Posted November 9, 2015 On 11/5/2015, 12:55:20, rainman said: How is the back bench seat cushion attached? I'd like to fold mine down sometimes. There are bolts on either side of the seat back that can be removed if you squeeze a socket in between the sidewall and cushion. The seat bottom is held down via a rod stitched into the bottom and connected to the footwell with spring clips. Very easy to remove the bottom cushion, and then you can fold down the seat back but you need to pay attention to the connector "ears" as you fold it down since they might interfere with the sidewalls. Note that when folded down you won't be able to slide the front seats all the way back, so ingress/egress is compromised slightly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rainman Posted November 9, 2015 Report Share Posted November 9, 2015 Thanks, I'll check the rod and clips on the bench seat bottom mañana. If it works out I may be able to bring bulkier items. AeroComfort redid my interior a few years ago (still looks great), but I didn't see the install. The upper bolts on the seat back are visible and should be easy to remove. Ray Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike A Posted November 9, 2015 Report Share Posted November 9, 2015 7 hours ago, anthonydesmet said: Jugs, let me know but I thought I PM'd you a PDF on rear seat fold down conversion and the modifications I eventually made to the PDF process. Let me know if you didn't get it, but pretty painless. I now get a full grown German shepherd and a chow in the back plus a couple bags for my wife and I. Or a full Tri-bike plus race wheels minus the dogs. I also keep all rear seat equipment in the plane so I can convert to carry 3+ pax if I am on a cross country in addition to no weight and balance changes. Can i get a copy of that PDF? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthonydesmet Posted November 10, 2015 Report Share Posted November 10, 2015 Gents, Sorry, I didn't think there would be that much interest or I would have posted this initially. Attached is the rear seat removal PDF I found. I started down this road however in the process came up with an option that worked better for me and kept all original equipment. Here is what I did and after you read through the PDF it will probably seem more clear. I also attached a pic of the two dogs: What I ended up doing is swapping my lower hinge screws and upper screws from screws and self locking nuts to pins and cotter keys. I also took off one screw from each upper bracket (I am referring to the bracket that is attached to the back of your upper seat behind the cushion) so my seat brackets swivel down out of the way behind the cushion when I put the seat back in the folded down position. If you don't the brackets that attach to the side of the airframe will get in the way of the arm rest. Then I just put them up when I need them and put a pin and cutter key to re-attach to the upper bracket holes that attach to the airframe. In the PDF instruction the guy actually grinds down and produces a bracket that attaches to the airframe first so the seat back rests on it. I just chose to do it a different way. So what you basically do is:, pull out the lower cushion, leaving the springs and set it aside in your hanger for the moment. If it is like mine, you will have to remove the rods that hold the cushion down to the floor on front and back. These rods are the only thing you can get rid of in the back of your hanger closet. Unscrew the lower hinges from your seat back and take the seat back out. Replace your bolts and nuts with same size pin and a cotter key. Once you put a pin and cotter key in, the removal is faster than the first time you use a wrench. you may have to find an angled wrench to get the self locking nuts off. The two upper brackets on the seat back have an inner and outer screw that screws into the seat back. Remove the outer one from each and push the brackets down so they are out of the way hidden behind the cushion Now, take your seat back, pull it forward and out a little and lay it flat on the lower seat springs as if you folded the seatback forward and down Now take your lower cushion and lay it width wise behind the seat back in your cargo space making the cargo space and the folded seatback all level, The ;over seat cushion will fold up a little on one side because its a little too wide but not that much Now I took a pet/scotch carded blanket that matches my carpet and had it seemed to match the shape of my carpet with the edges going up the side of the bulkhead about 4 inches. My wife also stitched in some velcro in so the blanket stayed staionary (or you can use a piece of carpet you cut/ordered) and lay on top of everything to pretty it up and make it look even. I have the fast clip in/out seat belts that attach to the bolts so I didn't need to unscrew my seat belts. However, I don't take them out. I just let them lay underneath the seat back on the metal. You can probably pull them up and also use them as cargo holders as someone has mentioned When you need the seat, pull the lower seat pad out and set it aside. Pull the seat back out and attach the lower hinges with the pins and cotter keys Swing the brackets out of the seat back and run a pin and cotter key through the bracket and seat post hole that’s already welded to the airplane as before Attach seat belts to pins as before (my seat belts are clips so they clip right onto the seat hinge pins) Put seat cushion back on Putting the seat back up takes me about 20 minutes Seats-1.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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