What would you do with $5k?

[Browncbr1]

I have less than 100hours and want to start instrument lessons in my 67F.  It is equipped with a kx155 with GS and an old kx170b with a cdi that is old and not very accurate.  King dme and stand alone marker beacon (no audio panel).   The brittain alt hold and accuflite were overhauled, but not installed yet.   I only have the one vacuum horizon gyro.    I've kept thinking that I really need to do some things before starting lessons, so I learn well on my panel, but I keep having difficulty deciding what to do and when to stop spending money.  

So, I figured I would give myself a $5k budget.   I know some will say save for an aspen or GTN...  I could see myself someday dropping the big bucks for some of that stuff, but for now, I want to get a decent safe instrument platform.   All airports I care to fly to have ILS or VOR approaches.   I don't know if I really need an ifr GPS and the monthly chart subscription that comes with it.  

Can anyone help me out from experience?

 

 

 

 

[carusoam]

Start with the magnetic compass.  See if it smoothly guides you through 360°.

My M20C was unable to do the required routine called ANDS. It would get hung up by the metal post it was mounted to.

Many of those tubes are updated with SS. Others have remounted their compasses.

Simple, short on cash, instrument training went on hold for years.  Wish MS was around then!

Minimum IFR equipment for me was two operating VORs to accurately identify intersections.  The ILS gives great capability of vertical control to low altitudes.

Having an IFR GPS is great modern utility.  It can fly VOR to VOR while the 'navigation' is technically performed by the panel mount VORs. No database updates required this way.  Brush up on the specifics.

I am not a CFI, just a PP.

Best regards,

-a-

Edited October 27, 2015 by carusoam

[gsengle]

A single used 430W gives you just about all the IFR capability you need. Vor approaches and even ILSs are being decommissioned, you really need WAAS these days, plus it will serve as an ADSB position source...

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[Browncbr1]

Start with the magnetic compass.  See if it smoothly guides you through 360°.

My M20C was unable to do the required routine called ANDS. It would get hung up by the metal post it was mounted to.

Many of those tubes are updated with SS. Others have remounted their compasses.

Simple, short on cash, instrument training went on hold for years.  Wish MS was around then!

Best regards,

-a-

I have an electric compass also.  I've never paid much attention to the wet compass.  Maybe I should, but the correction card is from 1973!! Yikes!

[Browncbr1]

A single used 430W gives you just about all the IFR capability you need. Vor approaches and even ILSs are being decommissioned, you really need WAAS these days, plus it will serve as an ADSB position source...

 

 

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I can't seem to get a 430 installed for $5k, let alone a waas.  I had thought about a 300xl...   But, it seems useless spending money on instrument GPS unless you're willing to spend 10-15k

[gsengle]

I guess the 430 is the minimum upgrade I'd bother with.... What's the minimum you can get a used one installed for?

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[carusoam]

Expect your instructor to go through the various Instrument failures.  You will be left navigating with your clock and your magnetic compass. It is not terribly difficult, unless your compass gets hung up on the post that it is hanging on.

It was an hour flight with an instructor that I couldn't get through.  It took at least an hour to realize it wasn't going to happen.  

Real easy to test.  Fly a standard rate turn, have your assistant video the compass.  Review the video for the smoothness of operation.  If it stops for 30°, breaks through and then tries to catch up...Accelerate North / Decelerate South will be easy in comparison...

Best regards,

-a-

Edited October 27, 2015 by carusoam

[Rwsavory]

Replace your CDI, or better yet install an HSI if you want to splurge.  Audio panel.  That should do it for now.  Good luck with your training.  

[Hank]

Go through your PC system, replace leaking / cracked / hard tubes and all connectors. Make sure the servos don't leak. Install a Brittain AccuFlite with heading bug. The stability in training and actual is wonderful! You can actually look at approach plates without drifting off course. Put in a reservation for the Altitude Hold unit if one ever comes available (I'd like to see how well this works, I don't have one yet either).

Any of your budget remaining can go into extra IFR training flights, practicing, etc. It's all money well spent.

[kris_adams]

a 430 or preferably a 430W would pair nicely with your 155.  That's exactly what I fly with.  The 430 subscriptions aren't that bad.  I think mine is $325/year.  Seriously amazed at this box still.  I can only imagine what the new new GTNs are like.  I'm trying to stay away from any plane that has one so I'm not tempted

[Marauder]

With the $5k, get what you have working. If the CDI on the KX-170B is working and the KX-170B is not, get either another KX or put in a TKM.

Quite honestly, $5k in the avionics world isn't a lot. As you pointed out, you couldn't get into a 430W and I wouldn't waste it on older technology. Get what you have working, get your rating and then determine where you go next. I flew IFR for 21 years with this:

The LORAN was useless then and is still now, I hated NDB approaches and was more than happy not to use it. I spent my money on a second reliable Nav/Com that could drive a second ILS.

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[FlyDave]

I agree on the 430.

IFR with GPS is much, much easier to fly than VOR's. It frees you up to fly the plane a lot more. Doing double or triple time trying to

1. Read a chart and
2. Tune/ID in the next VOR and
3. Turn to a new course and descend and
4. Talk to ATC

When you can just turn to the next heading and descend while talking to ATC - Priceless (well, maybe a 1-2 AMU's more than you're currently planning) but I think you'll be a lot happier when all is said and done if you save up and get a 430. All this in addition to what others are saying about approaches and infrastructure going away make a 430 a hands down choice.

Also, the database subscription for 1/2 of the country is about 40% cheaper if I remember correctly.

Edited October 27, 2015 by FlyDave

[Marauder]

And BTW, although I usually agree with my esteemed colleague Hank on most topics, I would hold off on the autopilot upgrade as well. You will be hand flying almost everything during your training. Better to spend the money on fixing the avionics for the approaches and even the compass that Anthony is important if that is your sole source of getting your magnetic heading.

I installed the vertical card compass, then the KX-170B with a TKM followed by the Narco Nav/Com.

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[Marauder]

I agree on the 430.

IFR with GPS is much, much easier to fly than VOR's. It frees you up to fly the plane a lot more. Doing double or triple time trying to

1. Read a chart and
2. Tune/ID in the next VOR and
3. Turn to a new course and descend and
4. Talk to ATC

When you can just turn to the next heading and descend while talking to ATC - Priceless (well, maybe a 1-2 AMU's more than you're currently planning) but I think you'll be a lot happier when all is said and done if you save up and get a 430. All this in addition to what others are saying about approaches and infrastructure going away make a 430 a hands down choice.

Also, the database subscription for 1/2 of the country is about 40% cheaper if I remember correctly.

Dave -- if he gets a used 430W for $7k, isn't he still in for another $2k+ for the supported CDI and then another $2kish for the installation?

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[MooneyPTG]

I put a Kln 89b about a year ago. Bought it for $700 an spent about 1200 for install. It works great, is Ifr cert., and will give you approaches. I considered a 430 but I didn't need a radio. I have a iPad with wing x with geo referenced plates for situational awareness. Just my 2 cents.

[MB65E]

I'd work on the head of the second Nav. Make sure your Vaccume system is 100% Such as the drift on the DG, making sure your ADI is actually level. Lots of items can be thrown in the improvement catagory. Things that don't bother you at all VFR will drive you nuts in the clouds.  Also, focus on airframe stability. Making sure the airplane will fly straight with little or no input from yourself. Rig the airplane to fly hands off, with only rudder and Trim inputs.  I would not worry about any one single new  guaget in the airplane. Granted all nice, but won't improve your training experience. These airplanes have been flying in the clouds for 60 years on just the basic stuff. 

Get everyrhing working then Spend the rest on 100LL and keeping your instructor happy. 

Have Fun!!

-Matt

[FlyDave]

 

Dave -- if he gets a used 430W for $7k, isn't he still in for another $2k+ for the supported CDI and then another $2kish for the installation?

 

 

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Geeze - I guess I haven't priced the 430's and associated equipment lately. You're right Chris, it is quite a bit more. But Craig needs to decide if he can get the extra AMU's together.

Craig - this is a never ending aviation issue of trying to decide to buy older technology or waiting/saving for the newer stuff. It'll turn into paralysis by analysis if you let it. If you get your existing panel fixed up at least get yourself an iPad and one of those Stratux ADS-B receivers (Stratus clone) for ~$100.

[Marauder]

Geeze - I guess I haven't priced the 430's and associated equipment lately. You're right Chris, it is quite a bit more. But Craig needs to decide if he can get the extra AMU's together.

Craig - this is a never ending aviation issue of trying to decide to buy older technology or waiting/saving for the newer stuff. It'll turn into paralysis by analysis if you let it. If you get your existing panel fixed up at least get yourself an iPad and one of those Stratux ADS-B receivers (Stratus clone) for ~$100.

And Craig being someone who went through this analysis, a thousand times, you need to absolutely convinced this is the plane you want to invest big bucks in. Some of us have made that decision knowing full well we will never get it back out. But I'll be damned if I am going to give it to my kids!

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[N601RX]

I would go ahead and install the Brittain stuff.  It shouldn't cost that much since you already own it and have had it serviced. You could even do some of the work like remove the side panels and run the tubing from up front to the back.  It will benefit you immediately, even if VFR.  I put in a non precision approach gps KLN94 a few years ago so I would have something to drive the autopilot with.  If I had it to do over I would probably have waited and put in a 430w.

Have you considered selling the kx155 and indicator, dme and kx170 and putting that money with the $5K you have budgeted?  You might have to come up with a little more money for the install, but that would come very close to getting you a 430w and CDI. Then you could add a audio panel, second radio and transponder in a few years when you saved up some more money.

[Browncbr1]

Thank you all for the very helpful advice.  Indeed, analysis paralysis.   Hank, I have the DG with heading bug in.  It was freshly overhauled and failed within one hour so it was sent back into the shop for warranty and just went back into the plane.  I have the brittain accuflite and alt hold.   They are freshly overhauled and ready to install.   Just haven't actually installed them yet.   I had planned on trying to get them in and working well soon.  PC works good currently.  I have a garmin aera510, iPad mini with stratux/fltplan go, and jpi830. 

It seems like I can get a king 208 for $350-400, so I'll do that and go with the kx170b I already have.  I told myself I wouldn't put in a Mac 1700 because my future upgrade path way down the road should be GPS/VOR/com.   I have planned a spot in my panel for an electric backup attitude indicator, but I know this isn't required for training.  I think I should talk to my avionics guy about a ps6000b audio panel.  

It sounds like I need to fly some hands off.  I know at cruise speeds it wants to bank to the right, but the PC system trim takes care of that when turned on.  Slower speeds seem pretty stable, but I should really let go of the yoke for a while and see.  

Marauder, you make some good points about this being the plane for me.  The only time I've ever questioned that is when I keep having to spend tons of money.  I'm already way upside down and still many things to be done.  Yes, if I had to do it all over again, I would have spent $10-20k more upfront to find a plane with everything already done.  But that's the past.  I'm pretty sure I'm committed to this one.  I'm going to need to reseal the right tank within the next year or two due to aft root seep causing cabin smell...  and I want to add Gamijectors next annual (June)...$$$$$

 

[mike_elliott]

  Yes, if I had to do it all over again, I would have spent $10-20k more upfront to find a plane with everything already done.  But that's the past.  I'm pretty sure I'm committed to this one.  I'm going to need to reseal the right tank within the next year or two due to aft root seep causing cabin smell...  and I want to add Gamijectors next annual (June)...$$$$$

 

Personally, I would begin this by passing the written test first. Then, start your instrument training with a CFII who is very knowledgeable about the systems you have, weather, and Mooneys, Then, before you begin seriously flying single engine IFR, consider getting the best single engine IFR platform under you your wallet will allow, meaning a functional autopilot, redundant everything, IFR certified waas GPS, moving maps, etc.

Your statement above is learned by about everyone who purchases a plane. Since you have an F, Ill try and save you a few $$, You should be able to balance the IO360 A1A with your existing stock injectors well enough to get a really smooth running engine all the way to 30-50 deg LOP. If you cannot, you are masking an issue with Gami's, such as an intake leak.

Good luck with the rating, it will make you a safer, more prudent and cautious pilot.

 

 

 

[ryoder]

I have less than 100hours and want to start instrument lessons in my 67F.  It is equipped with a kx155 with GS and an old kx170b with a cdi that is old and not very accurate.  King dme and stand alone marker beacon (no audio panel).   The brittain alt hold and accuflite were overhauled, but not installed yet.   I only have the one vacuum horizon gyro.    I've kept thinking that I really need to do some things before starting lessons, so I learn well on my panel, but I keep having difficulty deciding what to do and when to stop spending money.  

So, I figured I would give myself a $5k budget.   I know some will say save for an aspen or GTN...  I could see myself someday dropping the big bucks for some of that stuff, but for now, I want to get a decent safe instrument platform.   All airports I care to fly to have ILS or VOR approaches.   I don't know if I really need an ifr GPS and the monthly chart subscription that comes with it.  

Can anyone help me out from experience?

 

 

 

 

Go start your instrument training by working on the written.  Get kingschools instrument written course ASAP.  Once you finish that get in the air with an instructor.  90% of the training you do won't require the second nav.  Get your instructors opinion on it once you get going on training.  I bought a used cdi and a new MX170C and rarely use them but they are there as a backup and are helpful on ifr cross country trips.  

Edited October 27, 2015 by ryoder

[Browncbr1]

Personally, I would begin this by passing the written test first. Then, start your instrument training with a CFII who is very knowledgeable about the systems you have, weather, and Mooneys, Then, before you begin seriously flying single engine IFR, consider getting the best single engine IFR platform under you your wallet will allow, meaning a functional autopilot, redundant everything, IFR certified waas GPS, moving maps, etc.

Your statement above is learned by about everyone who purchases a plane. Since you have an F, Ill try and save you a few $$, You should be able to balance the IO360 A1A with your existing stock injectors well enough to get a really smooth running engine all the way to 30-50 deg LOP. If you cannot, you are masking an issue with Gami's, such as an intake leak.

Good luck with the rating, it will make you a safer, more prudent and cautious pilot.

 

 

 

Thank you for your helpful advice Mike..   Yes, I just want to be safe and prepared well enough to breakout no lower than about 2000 agl... And even this might be too bold...  I don't plan on flying IMC without a backup AI, that is for sure.. I do have the electric TC, which is nice..     I will have my auto pilot setup soon too..  IFR GPS will have to wait a while

Regarding my training, my CFII is one of the best and was with me for many hours in my plane already.  Yes, the written seems to be where to start.. 

I don't want to change the subject, but your comment about swapping injectors around might be worth exploring.  I may be able to just swap the front two for the respective back two.  Perhaps I'll try that and see if the spread can be narrower than 0.8.    Thank you for the suggestion!

 

[Browncbr1]

Go start your instrument training by working on the written.  Get kingschools instrument written course ASAP.  Once you finish that get in the air with an instructor.  90% of the training you do won't require the second nav.  Get your instructors opinion on it once you get going on training.  I bought a used cdi and a new MX170C and rarely use them but they are there as a backup and are helpful on ifr cross country trips.  

Thank you... I'll get his feedback too before spending money...  

[Browncbr1]

 It can fly VOR to VOR while the 'navigation' is technically performed by the panel mount VORs. No database updates required this way.  

 

great point!