Priorities when buying a vintage Mooney

[Guest]

Most of you are all veteran Mooney owners.  With experience comes a wealth of knowledge, and as in many situations, I'm sure most of you might place your purchase priorities differently if you had things to do over again.

For those of you who have been down this path before, I'd like to ask you what you would have done differently.  Would you have opted to spend more and get a J?  (don't shoot me for asking that one).  Would you have looked for a lower time engines and better avionics?

I made a list of things I wanted to have when I started my search.  They are:

Avionics, Bladder tanks, engine time, speed modifications (ie 201 ws, cowling, etc), interior condition, paint condition, pedigree and owner longevity. Please note that these aren't in any particular order.  I'd like to hear from those who already made this purchase.  What would be on your list if you had it to do over again and most importantly, what priority would you place on those items.

Thanks in advance for your input!

[Jerry 5TJ]

Priorities when buying a 50 year old plane:

Condition. 

 

 

[Guest]

I completely agree Jerry.  A 30,000 ft view of overall condition is, of course a must. But how would you rank the condition of each of the items?  What is at the top of the priority list?

 

Edited October 26, 2015 by Barcho

[Conrad]

Tippy top of the list: SMOH time and engine usage patterns. For those of us making the ownership journey with (relatively) modest means, there would be no faster way to ruin it than an unexpected overhaul. First plane I had pre-buyed is still on the market, but now with an overhaul on it.

Edit per below: or a corroded spar/spar cap.

Edited October 26, 2015 by Conrad

[DXB]

My priority list would be- clean corrosion free airframe > good engine that hasn't sat unused, irrespective of hours > no serious or questionably repaired damage history > limited deferred maintenance on major items > avionics.  Paint and interior are behind that. Add seller with reasonable, market-based price expectations near the top. A good heavily modded  F if you can find one may be a bargain relative to a comparably equipped J, rivaling its performance and comfort. However the J may better hold the value of any improvements you make- particularly avionics.

[Guest]

What do you consider too high of an engine time SMOH Conrad?

[M20F]

Condition is a given.  

I wanted a 1967 F (like the roomier interior) which was last year with flush rivets, manual gear, etc and a Rayjay.  I just looked till I found something that had those two things  (Rayjay and 67) and was a good value.  It took about a year to find the right combo.  

TBO, radios, etc are all just pricing considerations.  It's the things you really want that are key then you just hope you can get the right price. 

Edited October 26, 2015 by M20F

[Shadrach]

To expand on what was said above. I think buying any bird more than 10 years old is a process of verifying condition. Logs are a component, but remember it speaks more to the past than the present.  A thorough corrosion inspection. Verification of SB-208B compliance (in my opinion this means physically inspecting the cage). Lycoming engines are a crap shoot these days. I'd prefer a mid time engine that's proven itself or a timed out engine that is priced properly. Find a bird that has most of the things you want in terms of avionics. I would put the least amount of emphasis on the interior as it is the least costly to upgrade (which does not mean it's cheap). I nice interior will cost less than half the price of an uninstalled GTN650.

[Mooneymite]

I found a 23 year old airplane that had been continuously hangared.

While a hangar  is important in itself, it also shows the degree of commitment the previous owner had to the aircraft physical condition.

Fresh paint every 10 years on an "outdoor Mooney" does not provide the protection of continuous hangaring IMHO.

Hangar history is a priority to me.

Edited October 27, 2015 by Mooneymite

[carusoam]

Things that come to mind based on my M20C experience...

Look for Something more than 'minimum IFR equipped'.  My M20C was not the IFR trainer that I hoped it would be.

Have a way to positively identify intersections on an IFR chart, legally.  Like two VORs.  Add an ILS to deliver you to a lower altitude.  WAAS GPS would be extra nice in a supreme sort of way.

Pay good money for a PPI.  Have it done by somebody that knows Mooneys, but doesn't know that particular Mooney.

Expensive things to get wrong: Corrosion of the air frame or engine. Old paint. Old fuel tanks. Ancient avionics.

Best regards,

-a-

 

[carl]

what would be my priority . airframe.quality i think i did ok .  great . 

but that was not my priority when i purchased my plane . i have learned alot and believe anything can be repaired . but when looking for the plane it has to be the underlying airlframe . .

 

also i think if you have a great mechanic working with you then you are ahead of the game. 

 

carl

[HRM]

What I did:

1) Serviced and annulled for over a decade at that flaky MSC located at KGGG.

2) "It's a good plane" as told to me by the gruff old fart that owns the flaky MSC at KGGG.

3) Flawless paint job.

4) Grody interior (since replaced to my liking).

5) Aging, but functional IFR panel (in process of replacement in prep for long, cross-continent flights in retirement).

[Jerry 5TJ]

I completely agree Jerry.  A 30,000 ft view of overall condition is, of course a must....

No, a 6" examination of condition is what I suggest. 

[Guest]

Corrosion, corrosion, corrosion.  Airframe first, engine second.  It can scrap an airframe, all else can be replaced.

Clarence

[Bob - S50]

If I was going to start over, my priority would be:

1.  J.  That's what we got and I'm glad we did.  '78 or newer because of fuel selector and vernier controls.

2.  950+ pound useful load.

3.  Solid airframe (no corrosion).

4.  Descent paint job.  A new one will probably cost $10,000+ and do little or nothing to make it fly better.  However, it might help with future corrosion.  It doesn't have to be pretty or brand new, just something that isn't so bad I'll have to repaint soon.  I'd rather spend my money on avionics than on paint.

5.  Avionics that I want already installed.  For me that would be ADI/HSI or Aspen, 2 axis autopilot, WAAS GPS, engine monitor, audio panel with 4 place intercom. It's a lot more expensive to buy and install than to buy a plane with them already there.

6.  I wouldn't care about engine time, I would just factor in the cost of an overhaul.  As a matter of fact, I might even prefer a high time engine ready for overhaul so I can start with a new engine and be sure it is run the way I want it run.  So if I figure an overhaul costs about $25,000 - $30,000 and I had my choice of two identical airplanes, one with an 800 hour engine for $100,000 or one with a 1900 hour engine for $80,000, I would probably take the latter.

[gsxrpilot]

I did this very thing when I was shopping for my Mooney.  I made a wish list and ordered it by priority. They I went as far down the list as I could afford/find.

The original list:  I got everything in Bold type.

M20E or M20C

No frame corrosion

Engine < 1000 SMOH

Regularly flown

Standard 6-pack panel

IFR Certified

Autopilot

Dual Nav/Comms

HSI

WAAS GPS

no AD on prop

1 piece windshield

Tank bladders or sealed tanks

Airframe < 4000 TAT

Engine monitor

Exterior paint

Interior condition

2 blade prop

No Damage history

 

After a year and a half, and 220 hours all I would change is [Autopilot, WAAS GPS, HSI, Dual Nav/Comms, no AD on prop]...  

 

I would like to have a J for the extra speed and range, not for the room.  But I wouldn't compromise any of the above, it would have to be as nice as my C.

 

Finally, I would agree with -A- that I would not buy ANY Mooney without the blessing of the Oracle at KGGG.

[BigTex]

Hi Barcho - I'm a little confused.  Your profile said that you own a M20E.  Is that what you own or something you want?

Also, your question was pretty open ended.  What are you looking for in regards to you average mission?

Overall look for a Mooney that is corrosion free, contains ALL the avionics you'd like, decent paint and a mid-time engine that is in your price range and you'll likely have a winner.  Get a quality pre-buy done to detect issue like leaking tanks, etc. and you should be in good shape.

Finally, set aside 20% of the purchase price to fix deferred maintenance items.  It's a rare plane that you'll not use up that 20% fixing crap that was deferred no matter the condition of the aircraft.  So make sure you factor that into your purchase.

[CWM20f]

As far as engine time SMOH - personally my next plane would be high time and priced accordingly. I've already done the mid time engine the was flying 70+ hours per year.  Had a MOH not long after purchase (cam flattened out on #4).  No indications of this at PPI or in oil filter on previous oil change. 

[gsxrpilot]

As far as engine time SMOH - personally my next plane would be high time and priced accordingly. I've already done the mid time engine the was flying 70+ hours per year.  Had a MOH not long after purchase (cam flattened out on #4).  No indications of this at PPI or in oil filter on previous oil change. 

Hmmm... I still think the sweet spot is 500 hours. I don't want the infant mortality risk of a new engine even if I paid for the overhaul myself.

[gsxrpilot]

As far as engine time SMOH - personally my next plane would be high time and priced accordingly. I've already done the mid time engine the was flying 70+ hours per year.  Had a MOH not long after purchase (cam flattened out on #4).  No indications of this at PPI or in oil filter on previous oil change. 

Hmmm... I still think the sweet spot is 500 hours. I don't want the infant mortality risk of a new engine even if I paid for the overhaul myself.

[Conrad]

What do you consider too high of an engine time SMOH Conrad?

I meant more that it depends on budget. If you were going to buy paying all cash and still have 35k in the bank, any number of hours will do. You wouldn't want to have to ground or sell your plane though if the overhaul came at 1600 hours and you thought you were going to make it to 2000 and beyond.

Edited October 29, 2015 by Conrad

[Guest]

Hi Barcho - I'm a little confused.  Your profile said that you own a M20E.  Is that what you own or something you want?

Also, your question was pretty open ended.  What are you looking for in regards to you average mission?

Overall look for a Mooney that is corrosion free, contains ALL the avionics you'd like, decent paint and a mid-time engine that is in your price range and you'll likely have a winner.  Get a quality pre-buy done to detect issue like leaking tanks, etc. and you should be in good shape.

Finally, set aside 20% of the purchase price to fix deferred maintenance items.  It's a rare plane that you'll not use up that 20% fixing crap that was deferred no matter the condition of the aircraft.  So make sure you factor that into your purchase.

I just purchased an M20E and was asking about priorities during my purchase process.  I'll post a new thread and introduce everyone to the new family member. : )  I pretty much have used this criteria over the past 9 months on my search.  My priorities were on overall condition, corrosion, longevity of ownership, great historical records, quality maintenance, low engine time and all the avionics in place that I might want.  I'm thrilled with what I found.

Edited October 29, 2015 by Barcho

[BigTex]

It's a beautiful looking plane and it's hard to go wrong with an M20E.  

I HAVE to ask... What's under the car cover?

[Shadrach]

I HAVE to ask... What's under the car cover?

I believe it's red, Italian and very expensive...

[Guest]

Thank you for the kind comments on the Mooney! Yes, that's  a 1999 Ferrari on the starboard and a 1987 Ferrari on the port side.  The Mooney has 64 gallon bladders and a great panel. Seats feature new memory foam and custom leather. More pics to follow. 

Edited October 30, 2015 by Barcho