KevinR Posted October 25, 2015 Report Share Posted October 25, 2015 (edited) Has anyone else noticed how little information is available about the real cost of major maintenance? As I'm winding up my firewall-forward project, I'm considering releasing a line-by-line cost breakdown. Does anyone have any thoughts about why that might not be a good idea? If any non-flying spouses see this post, just tell them I got ripped off and you paid a lot less.. Or maybe we could play 'The Price Is Right' and let everyone guess. Here's an {almost} complete list of work performed: TSIO-520-NB Overhaul & Test Run by Certified Engines http://www.certifiedengines.com/ Magnetos & harness Starter Fuel injection system Oil cooler Intercoolers Turbocharger, controller, PRV, & waste gate Camshaft Crankshaft Prop overhaul by Palm Beach Propeller http://www.pbapi.com/ Prop governor overhaul prop blades overhaul new hub Millennium cylinders (new) Gami nozzles (new) Tempest fine wire spark plugs (new) Hoses (all new) Exhaust (overhaul by Rocket Engineering, replaced five sections, re-welded, polished) Engine Mount (overhaul by Rocket Engineering, replaced two tubes, re-welded, powder coated) Vibration mounts We definitely got in to the "while the engine is off, we might as well..." mode of thinking. That's what happens when you have access to a maintenance hanger and your -IA lets you do a lot of the grunt work. I've learned more about how everything works in the past three months than I did in the past twenty-five years of GA flying. Edited October 25, 2015 by KevinR 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yooper Rocketman Posted October 25, 2015 Report Share Posted October 25, 2015 Kevin, I am 230 hours over TBO on my Rocket, so seeing those numbers would be really useful to me. Even If you PM them to me if you don't post them. I'm hoping to not need to rebuild the engine until my Lancair is flying, so I don't have to go "plane-less" during the overhaul. Unlikely I will be able to sell it without a new engine. I bought my Rocket through Irv Fehr, who said it was pretty common for the Rocket engines (1600 TBO) to go to, or over, 2,000 hours. I know he took his engine down at about 2,000 hours. I've only OH'ed one jug since the conversion, which had a burnt valve. That, a mag rebuild, and one turbo OH is all I've done besides oil changes and plugs. Tom 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Houman Posted October 25, 2015 Report Share Posted October 25, 2015 thanks for the pictures and information. My Rocket is only about 200h since overhaul, so I have still alot of time on it before one is needed, at least one hopes I would be very interested in the numbers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 25, 2015 Report Share Posted October 25, 2015 Have you kept track of all the hours spent by you and your IA? What level of Mark up are you assuming on all of the materials used? Clarence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aviatoreb Posted October 25, 2015 Report Share Posted October 25, 2015 About a year ago I was shopping engine shops just so that I would pre-pick one in case my engine tells me one oil change it needs to be overhauled NOW so that I would not be engine shop shopping in a rush with an airplane that is AOG. I liked Zephyr amongst the top shops that came in at a decent for a top shop price of $35k for engine and accessories. So I have in round numbers been figuring overhaul time would cost $45-50k not including prop, but including exhaust overhaul and any frame work, new rubber mounts. Am I in the ballpark? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aviatoreb Posted October 25, 2015 Report Share Posted October 25, 2015 Kevin, I am 230 hours over TBO on my Rocket, so seeing those numbers would be really useful to me. Even If you PM them to me if you don't post them. I'm hoping to not need to rebuild the engine until my Lancair is flying, so I don't have to go "plane-less" during the overhaul. Unlikely I will be able to sell it without a new engine. I bought my Rocket through Irv Fehr, who said it was pretty common for the Rocket engines (1600 TBO) to go to, or over, 2,000 hours. I know he took his engine down at about 2,000 hours. I've only OH'ed one jug since the conversion, which had a burnt valve. That, a mag rebuild, and one turbo OH is all I've done besides oil changes and plugs. Tom I'm at 1350hrs. SO time to start thinking about it. I have also heard that rockets commonly go 2000 - because of two things. 1) The cooling setup is pretty good in the rocket so it runs relatively cool compared perhaps other applications of the same engine. 2) It is not as highly stressed at 305hp as some other applications of the same engine where you often see the same TSIO520NB doing 325hp or more in some twins. Also, if we were to go factory it would now be a 1800tbo engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketman Posted October 26, 2015 Report Share Posted October 26, 2015 The price for overhaul you quoted by Zephyr seems low. Need to check on non serviceable crankshaft, crankcase, are they replacing camshaft. And what about cylinders. Too many variables to speculate on cost. I just had my Rocket TSIO-520-NB overhauled by Victor which was considerably higher with accessories. Books can be written about how to and how not to overhaul an engine. On my Bravo I gave up on speculations and unknowns and went directly to Lycoming for my TIO-520-AF1B. As far as going to TBO on the Rocket, I would like to know the best way to run the engine to maximize endurance (power setting, rich lean, etc). One thing for certain make absolutely sure the fuel flow set up is perfect on this powerful engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinR Posted October 26, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2015 About a year ago I was shopping engine shops just so that I would pre-pick one in case my engine tells me one oil change it needs to be overhauled NOW so that I would not be engine shop shopping in a rush with an airplane that is AOG. I liked Zephyr amongst the top shops that came in at a decent for a top shop price of $35k for engine and accessories. So I have in round numbers been figuring overhaul time would cost $45-50k not including prop, but including exhaust overhaul and any frame work, new rubber mounts. Am I in the ballpark? definitely in the ballpark for the OH part, NOT including new cylinders. Biggest surprise was 6 AMUs for the engine mount & exhaust overhaul including freight and new Barry mounts. They did come back looking better than new. I'll post details later this week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinR Posted October 26, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2015 Have you kept track of all the hours spent by you and your IA? What level of Mark up are you assuming on all of the materials used? Clarence We've kept track of the 'real' hours; i.e. when wrenches are turning on specific removal / reinstall tasks. It's a big number. I've spent even more time than I'm willing to admit cleaning, checking, reading the STC & maintenance manuals, replacing every screw, bolt, nut, & washer I can find. All materials are tracked at actual cost. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 26, 2015 Report Share Posted October 26, 2015 definitely in the ballpark for the OH part, NOT including new cylinders. Biggest surprise was 6 AMUs for the engine mount & exhaust overhaul including freight and new Barry mounts. They did come back looking better than new. I'll post details later this week. It can become a truly staggering number. On top of the labour for the actual work and cost of the materials there are soft costs of many hours doing research, arranging shipping, tracking shipments etc. Clarence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seth Posted October 26, 2015 Report Share Posted October 26, 2015 $65k-$70k with everything you mentioned if you were to include shop time and not do the labor yourself. -Seth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aviatoreb Posted October 26, 2015 Report Share Posted October 26, 2015 $65k-$70k with everything you mentioned if you were to include shop time and not do the labor yourself. -Seth Did you shop that Set, or are you throwing out a guess? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSMooniac Posted October 26, 2015 Report Share Posted October 26, 2015 It is a staggering number. Having just completed my IO-360 overhaul, I'm not surprised to see such numbers. I didn't track my hours, but I know there were a ton. Undoubtedly the experienced guys would be much more efficient, but I have the satisfaction of learning more about everything firewall-forward now. Actually assembly of the engine might be the easiest part of the job! Choosing vendors, packing & shipping, tracking, reading through manuals and stacks of SI/SB papers, identifying and replacing hardware, etc. eats up a lot of time and you don't have anything to show for it until it is all done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aviatoreb Posted October 26, 2015 Report Share Posted October 26, 2015 It is a staggering number. Having just completed my IO-360 overhaul, I'm not surprised to see such numbers. I didn't track my hours, but I know there were a ton. Undoubtedly the experienced guys would be much more efficient, but I have the satisfaction of learning more about everything firewall-forward now. Actually assembly of the engine might be the easiest part of the job! Choosing vendors, packing & shipping, tracking, reading through manuals and stacks of SI/SB papers, identifying and replacing hardware, etc. eats up a lot of time and you don't have anything to show for it until it is all done. Reading this website eats up alotta time too.... 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aviatoreb Posted October 26, 2015 Report Share Posted October 26, 2015 For contrast, all in, same level of service, how much to overhaul everything firewall forward in say an M20J and an M20S? In round numbers, I would guess a M20J is 70% the cost of a rocket and a M20S is 90-95% the cost. (Same as a Missile I would expect) because you got the same basic concept in any big bore - a tight cowl, lots of pipes and tubes, a prop, lots of cylinders, lots of engine mounts, an exaust system - only a turbo is different and in the grand scheme when talkng 50-70k maybe a turbo overhaul is not such a big deal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aviatoreb Posted October 26, 2015 Report Share Posted October 26, 2015 It is a staggering number. Having just completed my IO-360 overhaul, I'm not surprised to see such numbers. I didn't track my hours, but I know there were a ton. Undoubtedly the experienced guys would be much more efficient, but I have the satisfaction of learning more about everything firewall-forward now. Actually assembly of the engine might be the easiest part of the job! Choosing vendors, packing & shipping, tracking, reading through manuals and stacks of SI/SB papers, identifying and replacing hardware, etc. eats up a lot of time and you don't have anything to show for it until it is all done. Certainly if going with a big busy Mooney shop where someone has already done several overhauls of the same exact airframe engine combination before, things go faster, although shop hours can be high. I was really impressed to watch a pair of mechanics do an engine r&r on my diamond da40 in 2 days flat - that setup is of comparable complexity as an M20J. IO360 four and an adjustable pitch prop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seth Posted October 26, 2015 Report Share Posted October 26, 2015 (edited) Did you shop that Set, or are you throwing out a guess? Guess. It was about $45k for my overhaul/annual/a few upgrades when I did mine four years ago and I have the Missile, not the Rocket, so no turbo expenses. If you take out the engine monitor and other annual items, it comes out to between $35k-$40k just for the engine, engine accessories, engine mount overhaul, prop flush & service (didn't overhaul at the time), governor overhaul, and such. I also did some panel work adding a JPI 830 and Aera 560 w/XM into the cockpit (just before Ipads got huge and way before weather on the ipad). So, I'm guessing with a full prop overhaul, which is closer to $3200 - $4000 vs just a flush/service, as well as other turbo engine items on a more expensive engine, it's going to be $65 to $70k. My gut is some upgrade will be made too. -Seth Edited October 26, 2015 by Seth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aviatoreb Posted October 27, 2015 Report Share Posted October 27, 2015 Guess. It was about $45k for my overhaul/annual/a few upgrades when I did mine four years ago and I have the Missile, not the Rocket, so no turbo expenses. If you take out the engine monitor and other annual items, it comes out to between $35k-$40k just for the engine, engine accessories, engine mount overhaul, prop flush & service (didn't overhaul at the time), governor overhaul, and such. I also did some panel work adding a JPI 830 and Aera 560 w/XM into the cockpit (just before Ipads got huge and way before weather on the ipad). So, I'm guessing with a full prop overhaul, which is closer to $3200 - $4000 vs just a flush/service, as well as other turbo engine items on a more expensive engine, it's going to be $65 to $70k. My gut is some upgrade will be made too. -Seth So 35-40 is what it cost you? Yeah - upgrades always cost more.... Am I wrong but aren't costs almost the same except for the turbo itself? This company for example, lists TSIO520NB for $28,900 for overhaul with factory new cylinders, incl turbo overhaul, and less for other new cylinders, like $27,750 with Titan new cylinders, vs $27,200 and $25,200 for an IO550 (no turbo) or $26,625 and $24,695 for an IO520. So looks to me like the turbo is costing $2k or so more, since all the other costs for a firewall forward overhaul are the same in all the big bore Mooneys aren't they? (And that was for Corrona but other companies I looked at had similar roughy $2k extra cost because of the turbo). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seth Posted October 27, 2015 Report Share Posted October 27, 2015 Reading this website eats up alotta time too.... One of my few times I don't think to myself "Is what I'm doing right now making me $$$" I use MooneySpace to learn and also to relax - it is a nice vice to have. -Seth 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seth Posted October 27, 2015 Report Share Posted October 27, 2015 So 35-40 is what it cost you? Yeah - upgrades always cost more.... Am I wrong but aren't costs almost the same except for the turbo itself? This company for example, lists TSIO520NB for $28,900 for overhaul with factory new cylinders, incl turbo overhaul, and less for other new cylinders, like $27,750 with Titan new cylinders, vs $27,200 and $25,200 for an IO550 (no turbo) or $26,625 and $24,695 for an IO520. So looks to me like the turbo is costing $2k or so more, since all the other costs for a firewall forward overhaul are the same in all the big bore Mooneys aren't they? (And that was for Corrona but other companies I looked at had similar roughy $2k extra cost because of the turbo). Dissasembly of Turbo, reassembly of turbo, I guess I was off with my estimate. Maybe $5k more when all is said and done? So closer to $40-$45 with no modification but replacing or overhauling all accessories? -Seth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aviatoreb Posted October 27, 2015 Report Share Posted October 27, 2015 Dissasembly of Turbo, reassembly of turbo, I guess I was off with my estimate. Maybe $5k more when all is said and done? So closer to $40-$45 with no modification but replacing or overhauling all accessories? -Seth That's my roughtistamate - and I don't know carefully enough to say if that is for turbo or no turbo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinR Posted November 9, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2015 SLOW progress- and hit a few snags. As we were getting ready to clean up the air box and connect it to the turbo, we found out the overhauled turbo didn't have and holes drilled in the outer case. See picture. Sending the turbo to Rocket to get it drilled. As promised, here are the numbers: Engine overhaul including all accessories except the alternator (less than 150 hours since new): $36,450 Camshaft exchange: $1,500 New Millennium cylinders: $3,300 Gami injectors: $1,200 Tempest fine wire plugs: $700 over standard plugs included in OH prop overhaul including governor and new hub: $9,201 hoses: $2,014 exhaust and engine mount (Rocket didn't itemize the bill, not including shipping since my home base is about as far from Spokane as you can get): $4,970 Barry mounts: $440 So not including freight, labor, or shop supplies, you can firewall-forward a Rocket for just under 60 AMU's. Real money no doubt. Although I'd still have to spend another million dollars to shave 30 minutes off of a 1,000NM trip... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mcstealth Posted November 11, 2015 Report Share Posted November 11, 2015 Is that the inlet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnum59l Posted November 12, 2015 Report Share Posted November 12, 2015 I wonder after seeing how the oil filter is positioned if I pre oiler would help as I am sure all the oil drain out if it's sitting for a day or more... Might help. Now the kid in my says I wonder how hard is it to make a twin Turbo out of this 305 and make it a 375HP We have the technology, we have the tools, all we really need is $$$ and maybe a parachute. Great write up and thank you for the info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eraaen Posted November 12, 2015 Report Share Posted November 12, 2015 choke... gag.. guess I need to up my reserve account per hour. At the rate I'm going, I'll be there in a couple years. Thanks for sharing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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