flyhigh603 Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 Hello everyone ! Brand new member, longtime reader. I am a private pilot with roughly 400 hrs. 380 hrs in 172`s / 150`s.From my first flight lesson, i walked past a Mooney and have had a love affair with them ever since ( even the ramp queens ).I`m looking to step up ( i think ) to a Mooney. After reading through literally hundreds of reviews and blogs and web sites i am getting the impression that owning and operating even a cheaper Mooney ( mid 60`s M20C`s ),is only for the rich and famous.I keep reading of all these horror stories of $2000 , $5000, $10,000 annuals.Is it at all possible to find a M20C / M20E in the $30,000`s that won't need thousands of dollars of squawk list repairs ? Is it possible to find a " turn key " Mooney in that range that i can actually fly for a "few " years without putting hundreds / thousands of $$$ into it.Also it seems that every Mooney for sale has some kinda issues with less than honest owners.I`m still trying to wrap my head around paying $2000 + for an average annual with no problems.If Mooneys are so well built why does it seems every other annual you have to put thousands of $$$ into it ? IS THIS TRUE ???? I don't believe in TBO times because after 100`s of hrs of personal research i have seen engines with low times fail before 1000 hrs and seen ridiculous high time engines still flying with no horsepower loss.There is a M20E at my field with 4,000 hrs + on the motor that still has compressions in the mid 70`s with no oil leaks.I would take a high time motor over a motor that is flown only 5 hrs a year. So again i ask all you Mooney owners is it possible to find a turn key Mooney in the $30,000`s ???? Also i might ad i am a VFR only pilot , so IFR equip is of no use to me if that makes a big difference..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drapo Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 In my opinion, the best way to end up with $5000 to $10,000 annuals is to look for a $30,000 Mooney... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve65E-NC Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 Where are you located? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry 5TJ Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 So, let's say you've decided to buy your first car. You figure a 50 year old car will be cheap to buy, inexpensive to maintain, replacement parts will be easy to find and lots of mechanics will know how to work on it, right? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yetti Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 as you posted it is a bit of a spin the wheel and see what you get. Some are good and some need attention. I think location has alot to do with how much is spent to maintain. Also if you are handy with a wrench and your A&P will supervise your work. I think I saw $250 for an oil change somewhere. It is $30 in Oil and $20 Oil Filter. And about an hour of your time. Things break and parts are expensive but once they are all replaced they should last another 40 years. A bendix for the Prestolite starter is $20 but removal and replacement of the starter is a large pain so you spend $600 to buy a B&C starter. A Timken bearing is a Timken bearing. A Gates belt is a Gates Belt. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackroc Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 Here is one on Barnstormers in that price range. https://www.barnstormers.com/classified_1063658_Mooney+Speed+and+Efficiency!.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryb Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 To answer your question, no it is not possible to find a turn key airplane. The thing with airplanes is you always have to be able to pay for a very large repair. Fuel tanks can be fine today and need a $10k re-seal tomorrow. Your engine can run fine one day and you can still find metal in your oil filter tomorrow. If you can't handle an un-expected expense in that range you are not ready for ownership. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob - S50 Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 Like others have said, it can be hit and miss. However, if money is tight you might consider finding partners to help with the finances. I did just that for the same reason. I have three partners. With four of us we had more money to spend on a plane. That meant we could get a "J" instead of me getting a "C". Fixed costs (hangar, insurance, annual, subscriptions) only cost 1/4th what they would have cost me. The hard part is finding partners. Even harder finding good partners. If you have an odd number of partners you never end up with a tie vote when it comes to decision making. We've done fine with 4 of us. Good luck, Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 (edited) In 2000, I bought a 1965 M20C, for $34k. It had been sitting for two years. Spent a few hundred bucks on a PPI. Stuck a valve within the first 10 hours of dual. A couple of ADs like oil pump gears and airleron control gussets at the first annual. Some small dollar issues, less than 1 AMU each. I owned it for ten years. Spending two AMU each year on owner assisted annuals. When I sold it for $18k, it had no paint, no hrs left on the engine, and no tank sealant. It's engine mount was broken and it's fuel caps were in need of 1 AMU fix to stop water from entering the tanks. The Narco radios had broken knob gears. The Loran went the way of other dinosaurs. It traveled tens of thousands of miles for trips I would not have made by driving. Yes it can be done, but not accidently. It helps to have a technical background to support this habit. It helps to have a partner. See any similarities to your situation? Welcome aboard, -a- Edited October 3, 2015 by carusoam 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonal Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 First let me say welcome to you. Your question seems a bit heated and given the premise I can understand. I started out with a 66 C150 that I purchased before my first lesson. I was all in. My annuals were much less than what I now pay for my 64c I sure do miss that what I don't miss is a 95 knot cruise into 20 knot headwinds. I purchased mine without a pre buy (very stupid) and my big mistake was finding Mooney Space after I was an owner not before. Mine had quite the laundry list of issues that needed attention and I have been diligent on addressing them as they come up. I also take it to one of the most expensive service centers there is but always do owner assist on every thing they do. I have decided it saves me very little money this way but I always know the condition of my airplane first hand and how the work was done. Is it possible to find the airplane you seek, perhaps but it won't be easy. The one listed on Barnstormers is also listed here on MS. If I could get a no gripe annual I would be just over 2k sadly with a 51 year old craft I doubt that will ever happen. I know I could find a cheaper annual but then who do you trust to do it right. The reason my annuals have been so high is all the cheaper annuals it had before I owned it. A partner is a great idea but finding a good one could be as hard as finding a good Mooney in your price range. Good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyhigh603 Posted October 3, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 Wow some good advice guys.I would like to add i`m not a newbie to aviation even though i have only 400 hrs.I go online 2 hrs a day and do research on MANY types of planes.I owned a 65 cessna 150 and did all the annuals owner assist and those annuals were $400 ea.There is a M20E based at my home airport that the owner had a brake cylinder fail.It took the shop 3 months to get it back in the air because they couldn't find the "right " part, and from what the mechanic told me it had to be sent back twice because of wrong part was sent.On top of that it cost $5400 !!! i just can`t wrap my head around those #s. I am very mechanically adept and can learn by just seeing it done once.I research every plane that is listed for sale from 10 different sites and know by memory what the best looking deals are.I`m just a blue collar Joe that wants to own a simple Mooney but it seems every Mooney needs big $$ every other annual.I figured i have a budget for the mid $30s and have seen some good looking deals for mid 60`s m20C`s and a few m20E`s near the high $30`s low low $40`s.But what i`m hearing is at this price range they are not worth it ???? I am located in So. New Hampshire. So again any advice will be well listed to....Is there any Mooney owners on here, in or near NH ??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 (edited) Something seems to be missing. Is the Mooney the expensive part, or is it a common brake part, or an owner's finances? The brakes are not Mooney parts. Three months to fix a brake problem is not a Mooney parts specific problem. Even if it was, there is a factory that supports service centers around the country. They can source the harder to find parts. Keep researching down to the specific model, nut and bolt. They aren't going to put it in your hands for you... Back in Y2K, I compared to Piper 140/150 and Cessna 172. You have this experience already. The difference in equipment between these and an M20C is a hydraulic hand pump and mechanical gear. At annual, there are a bunch of sheet metal screws to remove. The Cessnas had electric flap issues...the 65 C172 had a six cylinder engine. Find Alex's thread. He has been detailing every step he has taken to find a Mooney that fits his requirements. How he met the owner. How he flew it home. How he has updated it. He even gave his work details. He was not a lawyer or a doctor... Some people join the CB club because they have to. Others do it because they want to. Some get ousted from the CB club when there IP is brighter than the lights on Broadway. What are your challenges? Best regards, -a- Edited October 3, 2015 by carusoam 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DXB Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 Welcome! I wish you well in your search for a plane that you can enjoy and fits your budget. I can only tell you my own recent experience with ownership of a '68 M20C. As a new private pilot, I wanted a basic 4 place aircraft to grow in and get the best value out of as a new pilot. I considered everything from 70s vintage PA28s and C172s all the way up to 5-10 year old Cirrus SR20s - a broad price range to be sure. The M20C certainly was at the bottom end of this price range, and a great value in performance relative to competitors at it's price point. These competitors are cheaper to own and operate, but certainly not cheap. Best I could calculate, planning to fly 50-100 hrs per year, the cost was about 20% more with the M20C. At the high end I considered a used SR20, this would mean a 3-4x more expensive purchase for a plane with very similar performance numbers, more modern avionics, and much more expensive operations costs after factoring annuals, insurance, etc. This didn't seem smart at all to me. BTW I am incredibly happy with my purchase- the cross country performance, the efficiency, the intangibles of how the plane feels to fly, and the the pride of ownership simply cannot compare over the '70s Archer I was considering. And the Archer would have cost me 10-20k more for a similarly equipped plane. I seriously doubt I've spent more on first year squawks than I would have with the competitors- but I have definitely spent some money. The base annual cost will be about 30% more, but hopefully I've beaten most of the problems out of it now. The financial risks of ownership (e.g. needing to blow 25k for an early overhaul on a O-360, having a bad corrosion issue) are essentially the same. The ways to mitigate these risks are also the same- be patient in your search, invest in a meticulous prebuy inspect from a real expert, look beyond the sticker price in considering the real cost, negotiate intelligently, learn all you can about operation and maintenance that is specific to your aircraft after purchase. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N2124V Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 Also, keep in mind people will gripe about problems, very rarely do they get online and say how great things are. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryoder Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 Bought mine for 20k, nav com two for 2k, one piece windshield for 1500, interior replacement with leather for about 5k, tank reseal for 2k, DG for 800, compass for 200, tires and spark plugs about 1k, annual for 700, starter switch for 500, fixed transponder mounting tab for 200 in the first year. Add on IFR cert for 300 and prop hub inspection for 300. Engine is 2580 or so SNEW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyNameIsNobody Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 Yes, You can get a vintage Mooney with a key that turns in the ignition for $30k. You say you have read and researched a lot. I find it hard to believe that you have read a lot of posts here and sincerely asked that question. Buy a Cherokee 180. You will feel like you are "Really moving" compared to the 172 for well under your $30k price point. If someone you know spent 5AMU's for a brake issue Barnum and Bailey wants to sell them some stuff too... Have a super night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyhigh603 Posted October 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2015 Thanks for all the input gentlemen !! AS far as the brake issue with the Mooney at my field.I have learned that it was the brake master cylinder that needed replacement.Master cylinder was $2200 alone and the part that was sent had different bolt patterns on the 2 that was sent.I know that ALL machines brake down and ALL parts wear out.I guess I'm not asking for a squawk free aircraft at $30-$40,000. I `m just worried about parts availability for the older M20C`s / m20E`s. I guess i`m just asking if as a Mooney owner do you gentlemen have to put $1000`s in every annual because of constant part failures ? do any of you just have annuals done that don`t require fixing major components ? I know stuff wears out and brakes.So really the question is can Mooney`s be maintained affordably or are you guys repairing constantly ? I have no problem maintaining an aircraft i`m just wondering if i`m gonna be repairing major components regularly....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonal Posted October 4, 2015 Report Share Posted October 4, 2015 Most (not all) of my expensive repairs have been engine not airframe related and those would have applied to any O360. I have never had a long delay waiting for a part. But as I said before I take mine to a shop that has one of the best parts departments there is for Moonies. Yes there are Mooney specific parts that can be very expensive but that holds true for all certified aircraft. For example a carb heat air box for a C150 is 1500.00 and for a Bonanza can run you 5000.00 it's not the brand it's the certification that makes all this crap expensive. It costs money to go fast but no other certified airplane will go as fast for as little as a Mooney. Over the past few years I have put a good bit of money into the game (nowhere near what others) have spent. But I get to be a Mooney owner and pilot and that's pretty F...ing cool. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted October 4, 2015 Report Share Posted October 4, 2015 Thanks for all the input gentlemen !! AS far as the brake issue with the Mooney at my field.I have learned that it was the brake master cylinder that needed replacement.Master cylinder was $2200 alone and the part that was sent had different bolt patterns on the 2 that was sent.I know that ALL machines brake down and ALL parts wear out.I guess I'm not asking for a squawk free aircraft at $30-$40,000. I `m just worried about parts availability for the older M20C`s / m20E`s. I guess i`m just asking if as a Mooney owner do you gentlemen have to put $1000`s in every annual because of constant part failures ? do any of you just have annuals done that don`t require fixing major components ? I know stuff wears out and brakes.So really the question is can Mooney`s be maintained affordably or are you guys repairing constantly ? I have no problem maintaining an aircraft i`m just wondering if i`m gonna be repairing major components regularly....... As a long time owner of the same plane (24 years), you are going to encounter issues along the way. Some will be expensive. If you are lucky enough to to find a sincere owner who really and I mean really attempted to keep the plane functional and in top shape, it still will be expensive. Things break, things wear out and you'll want to upgrade things. I budget (okay, in other words, I don't tell the wife) that it will cost me between $18,000 and $22,000 a year to fly. My cheapest annual, an owner assisted at $900 in the mid 90s. The most expensive (not counting adding stuff), $7,000. Don't forget reserves. At some point that 4,000 engine hour Mooney on your field will need an overhaul. And if you want a top notch overhaul, it is expensive. If you can't afford to own within those extremes, then I would look for a partner or just keep renting. As Dave mentioned, it is a lot less painful to note something in the squak log and let someone else pay for it. I'm not trying to scare you away from ownership, just trying to let you know that the expenses add up. Two comments were made to me about airplane ownership. The first was an old time aviator who told me it would be cheaper for me to throw $20 bills in the air while watching airplanes take-off and land. And the second was from my wife when she said, "It would have been cheaper if you had a cocaine habit". Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryoder Posted October 4, 2015 Report Share Posted October 4, 2015 Thanks for all the input gentlemen !! AS far as the brake issue with the Mooney at my field.I have learned that it was the brake master cylinder that needed replacement.Master cylinder was $2200 alone and the part that was sent had different bolt patterns on the 2 that was sent.I know that ALL machines brake down and ALL parts wear out.I guess I'm not asking for a squawk free aircraft at $30-$40,000. I `m just worried about parts availability for the older M20C`s / m20E`s. I guess i`m just asking if as a Mooney owner do you gentlemen have to put $1000`s in every annual because of constant part failures ? do any of you just have annuals done that don`t require fixing major components ? I know stuff wears out and brakes.So really the question is can Mooney`s be maintained affordably or are you guys repairing constantly ? I have no problem maintaining an aircraft i`m just wondering if i`m gonna be repairing major components regularly....... I also worry about expenses but not because I have no money and a low income. I worry about it because it is a bad investment to dump good money into an aging airframe. If you are worried about it because you don't have the income then you should not buy. I personally think people should have a high income to own an airplane and the ones that don't should stick to renting or partnering in a 150 and be glad they have something to fly at all. By high income I mean the top one percent of earners, not a million dollars, just be in the top one percent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted October 4, 2015 Report Share Posted October 4, 2015 I also worry about expenses but not because I have no money and a low income. I worry about it because it is a bad investment to dump good money into an aging airframe. If you are worried about it because you don't have the income then you should not buy. I personally think people should have a high income to own an airplane and the ones that don't should stick to renting or partnering in a 150 and be glad they have something to fly at all. By high income I mean the top one percent of earners, not a million dollars, just be in the top one percent. LOL! If I used your criteria, I would still be renting. A lot depends on what you buy, how much you fly, how aggressive you are dealing with issues and how committed you are to the plane. Case in point. When my Narco starting going out, I attempted to repair it. That effort was $600 counting in the initial troubleshooting and an attempted repair. When it became apparent the repair wasn't going to work my option was to look for a yellow tagged slide-in. I found one at $900. Decision time. Do I put a company's used radio that is no longer in business in my plane, do I buy & install a used King radio for $2,000 or do I put in a new radio for $5,000? These are the decisions an owner needs to make. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DXB Posted October 4, 2015 Report Share Posted October 4, 2015 I guess i`m just asking if as a Mooney owner do you gentlemen have to put $1000`s in every annual because of constant part failures ? do any of you just have annuals done that don`t require fixing major components ? I know stuff wears out and brakes.So really the question is can Mooney`s be maintained affordably - or are you guys repairing constantly ? I don't know for sure, but if you surveyed all the C/D/E/F/G model owners here, I strongly suspect that the definitive answers to your 4 questions above would be: No, Yes, Yes, No The costly brand-specific issues for the old Mooneys are few and are known entities. Wet wing fuel tank seals. Those unique rubber gear biscuits. I'm sure others can add a few more. Risk related to such items can easily be mitigated up front by knowledge and attention during pre-buy. There are a handful of other oddball items that can be exorbitant. But for the most part, the things that can drive up C/E model ownership apply to all comparable price planes, virtually all of which are less capable. BTW your anxieties mirror my own before I bought my plane. Keep in mind that the meticulously maintained, updated 45k plane can save you a lot in the long run over many 30k planes. Buying carefully is key, and this site provided me excellent guidance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandelay Posted October 4, 2015 Report Share Posted October 4, 2015 Do I put a company's used radio that is no longer in business in my plane, do I buy & install a used King radio for $2,000 or do I put in a new radio for $5,000? These are the decisions an owner needs to make. Really? This coming from the guy with a panel with 2 Aspens, GTN 650, GNC 255, etc... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted October 4, 2015 Report Share Posted October 4, 2015 Really? This coming from the guy with a panel with 2 Aspens, GTN 650, GNC 255, etc... Yep, the one and the same. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryoder Posted October 4, 2015 Report Share Posted October 4, 2015 LOL! If I used your criteria, I would still be renting. A lot depends on what you buy, how much you fly, how aggressive you are dealing with issues and how committed you are to the plane. Case in point. When my Narco starting going out, I attempted to repair it. That effort was $600 counting in the initial troubleshooting and an attempted repair. When it became apparent the repair wasn't going to work my option was to look for a yellow tagged slide-in. I found one at $900. Decision time. Do I put a company's used radio that is no longer in business in my plane, do I buy & install a used King radio for $2,000 or do I put in a new radio for $5,000? These are the decisions an owner needs to make. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk I agree new is better. My Kx170 was acting up from day one and got worse. I junked it and put in a brand new MX170 slide in replacement for 1850. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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