VW Dilemma

[Piloto]

Not that I am thinking of putting a Diesel on my Mooney. But why when testing a diesel engine VW car emissions you need to tell the car computer a test is to be performed?. And if the VWs can emit clean combustion gases during the test only why they don't do it all the time. In the early days car didn't have computers and emission tests were performed by just inserting a probe in the muffler. What I am missing here? Does an $11 billion fine is going to clean the pollution emitted by the VW cars? How about the pollution of all those toilets that discharge into the ground of drinking water wells? 

José 

[Hank]

VW rigged the software to run cleanly for the tests, then on the road to run with more power. Pollution control reduces the available engine power, like an artificial high DA. People don't want to struggle uphill, and to be able to pass other slower vehicles. VW diesels tend to be small for fuel efficiency, and as Big Daddy Garlits said when I was a little boy, "there's no replacement for displacement." This was before much pollution control, too. Increase engine size, mileage goes down, so VW opted to increase their power output by disabling pollution control devices.

no,mthe fine won't clean up 10 years of VW pollution all over the world, but there must be a significant penalty for flagrant, willful, long term violation of the rules, or it will happen again and again.

[gsengle]

The computer read factors like steering wheel position over time, probably wheel sensors, etc. to infer when a test could be running. They only caught them by rigging test equipment in a moving vehicle.

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[Hank]

West Virginia University caught the German engineers with their pants down!! Ha ha! I'd say something positive about the Mountainers (almost all of my in laws have gone there the last three generations), except I earned my Masters across the state at Marshall. 

[Marauder]

Not that I am thinking of putting a Diesel on my Mooney. But why when testing a diesel engine VW car emissions you need to tell the car computer a test is to be performed?. And if the VWs can emit clean combustion gases during the test only why they don't do it all the time. In the early days car didn't have computers and emission tests were performed by just inserting a probe in the muffler. What I am missing here? Does an $11 billion fine is going to clean the pollution emitted by the VW cars? How about the pollution of all those toilets that discharge into the ground of drinking water wells? 

José 

I drive an F350 diesel with the new 6.7L. A number of diesels of today use a filter in-line that traps the "soot" emitted. The back pressure on the filter triggers a regeneration process which includes pumping an urea based solution into the exhaust to superheat the filter and burn up the soot.

It is all computer controlled and I see if VW used a similar technology how you could tamper with the test results.

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[Marauder]

Here is a good description of what VW is accused of doing.

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[jetdriven]

I always noticed s black stain on the back bumper of Volkswagen TDI cars.  And I often wondered how they could get fantastic mileage, great power, and not use the blue diesel exhaust fluid yet still meet emissions standards.   The answer is they couldn't.

id also like to point out the reason we have so few diesels here when they would be extremely popular is the emissions standards are the same for diesel and gasoline cars, which is absurd. Carmakers lobbied the EPA to make this change to keep Europeans cars out after their spectacular 1979-1985 diesel car experiment.  Does anyone remember the 105hp 350cu-in Oldsmobile diesel in the full size GM cars?  0-60 you could almost smoke a whole cigarette.  

Edited September 25, 2015 by jetdriven

[wishboneash]

id also like to point out the reason we have so few diesels here when they would be extremely popular is the emissions standards are the same for diesel and gasoline cars, which is absurd. Carmakers lobbied the EPA to make this change to keep Europeans cars out after their spectacular 1979-1985 diesel car experiment.  Does anyone remember the 105hp 350cu-in Oldsmobile diesel in the full size GM cars?  0-60 you could almost smoke a whole cigarette.  

European rules allow more NOx but lower CO compared to US EPA rules, so it is tougher for diesels to meet the US pollution standards. That would effectively keep diesels out by making them uncompetitive with gasoline cars in the US. The fuel economy gains would be less spectacular which is what I guess BMW and others who are complying have to contend with.

[Guest]

When compared to 100 deaths caused by GM's ignition switches this is being blown out of proportion.  Even if they engine wasn't as emission friendly as once thought, they consume a bunch less fuel.

Clarence

[aaronk25]

As long as we're talking about 3rd persons "friends" in other threads. I'd like to point out I have a friend who deleted the EGR and did other naughty emission modifications and the Vw now gets 55mpg. Up from mid 40s.

Good stuff!

[carusoam]

The strength of the argument goes beyond the exhaust issues...

This is a corporation that has been caught pulling a fast one over a government organization.

Firing the top dogs, or letting them leave, doesn't solve the problem either.

1) There was a technical challenge.

2) The solution costs money

3) A decision was taken.  Expensive solution vs. hide the issue.

4) Choosing the 'hide the issue' option is getting more difficult to use every day...

5) GM took the 'hide the issue' to a higher criminal level by not documenting specific engineering changes related to the ignition switch.  They have procedures for these changes and decided to not follow them specificly for the switch.

In the United States, there is a procedure to 'help' a company that is having difficulty running their important business.  The government body like the EPA, FDA, or even the FAA provides the company with a Consent Decree.  A document that is written to get things straightened out at the offending company. This is where you see how smart and dedicated government employees can be.

In the past there was a very small record of any companies getting out of consent decree.  It takes thousands of people and a couple of years to straighten out corporate malfeasance. By the time the clean-up is in place, the company stock price is crushed by their lack of earnings.  Artificially low stock prices leads to corporate take over.

Either way, the top dogs have lost their jobs.  Quitting is taking the easy way out.  Not very honorable to fall on one's own sword.

I would wager, that there may be a lot more behind this curtain. 

Best regards,

-a-

 

 

[peevee]

I always noticed s black stain on the back bumper of Volkswagen TDI cars.  And I often wondered how they could get fantastic mileage, great power, and not use the blue diesel exhaust fluid yet still meet emissions standards.   The answer is they couldn't.

 

Not on the new ones.

[carusoam]

PV, The black stain moved, it went from the bumper to their reputation....

Best regards,

-a-

Edited September 25, 2015 by carusoam

[PTK]

The EPA toxic spill in the Animas river in Colorado happened last month on Aug 5.

The EPA, by their own admission,  knew about the VW software and testing as far back as 2009!

Suddenly the EPA became intetested in the Clean Air Act??!!

A nice way to pay for the cleanup??

Really EPA...leave VW alone!!

Edited September 25, 2015 by PTK

[aaronk25]

EPA stopped by our office last year and informed us that we can't have floor drains that drain to daylight in our production facility unless they drain into a explosion proof holding bin to be pumped later!

They have said any building that has the room to store 6 or more automobiles inside, regardless if the building has a door large enough to allow vehicles inside can not have floor drains that drain to daylight.

This group is reduculis. So now we have to pour concrete down our drains to seal them. We can't even wash down our floors with water. What a joke.

[carusoam]

Human Safety issues take a huge priority.

6 bays must make you not a small business.

Coming up with your own solution is better than having the government come up with one for you.  Nobody knows your business better than you.  Keep modernizing.  Getting stale costs more than modernizing...

Definitely don't wait for 'them' to show up to 'help'.  Insulting them doesn't work very well either.

I have seen companies rely on old traditions to get deeper in trouble.  

- 'We've always done it this way'

- 'We are the best in the industry'

-'All the other kids are doing it'

I was on a consulting team to help get a company out from under consent decree.  They were successful at getting out from under the decree.  Days later(?) they were absorbed by a larger US company...

the stock holders/owners get beat in this situation.

add this to your thinking,

-a-

[Hank]

Aaron, I've worked in several manufacturing operations that didn't have floor drains. Actually, I'm working in my fourth factory, none have/had floor drains. We used mops. Where I am now is mostly one large open building, call it 150 yards or so long, not as wide. There are several small, room-sized structures inside it, and some one-story offices at one end. We also mop the floors. Is it really so bad?

what do you produce? I've been in medical manufacturing for a long time, but have now returned to my roots in commercial manufacturing. Working for the OEM is nice.

Edited September 25, 2015 by Hank

[LANCECASPER]

I always noticed s black stain on the back bumper of Volkswagen TDI cars.  And I often wondered how they could get fantastic mileage, great power, and not use the blue diesel exhaust fluid yet still meet emissions standards.   The answer is they couldn't.

id also like to point out the reason we have so few diesels here when they would be extremely popular is the emissions standards are the same for diesel and gasoline cars, which is absurd. Carmakers lobbied the EPA to make this change to keep Europeans cars out after their spectacular 1979-1985 diesel car experiment.  Does anyone remember the 105hp 350cu-in Oldsmobile diesel in the full size GM cars?  0-60 you could almost smoke a whole cigarette.  

Since 2009 VW's have used the blue diesel exhaust fluid - they were called the "clean diesel"

[AndyFromCB]

Since 2009 VW's have used the blue diesel exhaust fluid - they were called the "clean diesel"

No they haven't. No in the 2 liter, 4 banger variety. Just started that in 2015 for the small engines.

[AndyFromCB]

When compared to 100 deaths caused by GM's ignition switches this is being blown out of proportion.  Even if they engine wasn't as emission friendly as once thought, they consume a bunch less fuel.

Clarence

You should read up on NOx does and how many people it kills annually. Many more than the switches...Mostly older folks, so what do I care ;-) Seems to be EU's solution to aging population.

Edited September 25, 2015 by AndyFromCB

[jbs007]

As long as we're talking about 3rd persons "friends" in other threads. I'd like to point out I have a friend who deleted the EGR and did other naughty emission modifications and the Vw now gets 55mpg. Up from mid 40s.

 

Good stuff!

I have a friend who wants to know, just out of technical curiosity, how your friend did this to a modern vw.

[aaronk25]

Ok about the factory we manufacture exterior walls for high rise buildings. I guess we don't really need them but it sure would be nice to was a car or truck inside occasionally.

On the VW question www.kermatdi.com makes "off road" EGR delete kits.

Also advancing timing on injection pump creates more power (cylinder pressure) and better mpg at the expense of higher Nox.

Actually on the newer Jetta diesels the EGR is difficult to delete but the EGR can in some cases help mpg. Basically the factory used to much boost (lean mixture) at light highway engine cruising loads which hurts MPG. Keep in mind that turbo boost isn't free, yes a turbo is more efficient than a supercharger but the turbo boost still increases back pressure which robs power by putting resistance against the piston on the exhaust stroke.

Not enough boost make a rich condition (sooty) just like a rich airplane engine, that's bad too. A happy medium is best for mpg, but fails a emission test.

For big power lots of boost lots of fuel moderate timing advance on injection pump.

For economy, light boost, lots and lots of timing advance ....better mpg

For emissions cruising down highway, lots of boost, moderate to low timing, pass emission mpg at 42ish vs mid 50's

[aaronk25]

Oh and you LOPers your creating higher NOx emissions than those running at peak egt (stoichiometric mixture).

Honda made some engines that ran in a lean mode, actually lean of peak several years back but the EPA NOx limits make this a no more.

Basically your engine tuning mpg increasing chips for gas engines make the engine run LOP during light engine loads, that's why they also won't pass a emissions test.

[Htwjr]

I am a big fan of efficiency, hence the Mooney.  I had an 02 Jetta TDI that I put 253k mi on and got 40mpg with very little maintenance and is still going strong.  I currently have a 2013 Passat TDI that also gets 40mpg and my daughter drives a Beetle TDI that gets 45mpg.  My Passat does have the exhaust fluid.  I doubt that I will be taking my car in to be reprogrammed to have less power or get less mileage.  I believe I am doing my part to help the environment by going at least twice as far on a gallon of fuel that if I was driving a truck.

[N201MKTurbo]

I agree that if I had a VW I wouldn't get it "fixed".

I rented a Seat Ibeza (a VW product with a TDI) in Spain earlier this year. I loved that car. I drove that car everywhere and at the end of the week it took $30 of fuel! That car was fast, you could burn rubber without even trying.

http://www.seat.com/carworlds/ibiza-5d/overview.html

 

Edited September 25, 2015 by N201MKTurbo