Tony Armour Posted September 22, 2015 Report Share Posted September 22, 2015 Not the choice I would have made unless terain restricted or the weather below was likely to be dangerous (ice) Mountainous terrain below and clouds at 12k but probably no icing. Minimum altitudes 6-7,500' IMO, knowing something is going on: no oxygen and constantly watching (at 14k) is way different than it sneaking up on you. Any higher then yes I would have went ahead and done something. I REALLY didn't want to leave blue skies to get beat up :-) Plus, I had been reading this thread LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danb Posted September 22, 2015 Report Share Posted September 22, 2015 Dev I seriously appreciate your knowledge more importantly sharing it with the forum, I learned quite a bit from it. That must be a great Holiday Inn your staying at Dan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted September 22, 2015 Report Share Posted September 22, 2015 Dev I seriously appreciate your knowledge more importantly sharing it with the forum, I learned quite a bit from it. That must be a great Holiday Inn your staying at Dan He lost me right after "you need oxygen" Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aviatoreb Posted September 22, 2015 Report Share Posted September 22, 2015 I've learned a few things in this thread. One of them was pressure breathing. If the video is to be believed, there is some value to it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-ZPjlWK0jc One more tool in the box should things go wrong. "Push breathing" as she calls it is something I learned rowing crew in college. It really helps when doing max-intensity aerobic activity. In fact, for a rythmic sport like rowing, I breath every stroke and expel air with force each time at a certain phase of the stroke. I still dabble in rowing and I even did the head of the charles again year before last in a double scull. I also do it for bicycle tt but not in any phase. This has been an excellent thread - maybe best ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DXB Posted September 22, 2015 Report Share Posted September 22, 2015 "Push breathing" as she calls it is something I learned rowing crew in college. It really helps when doing max-intensity aerobic activity. In fact, for a rythmic sport like rowing, I breath every stroke and expel air with force each time at a certain phase of the stroke. I still dabble in rowing and I even did the head of the charles again year before last in a double scull. I also do it for bicycle tt but not in any phase. This has been an excellent thread - maybe best ever. I'm curious now on studies on push breathing in an aviation context- does anyone here know? Military must have looked at it at some point I would think? In principle it should help as advertised in a pinch. But a potential downside is that it might unintentionally drop CO2 and thus worsen alkalosis because it may be hard to do without also unintentionally increasing breathing depth and/or rate. For the performance athlete or mountaineer, this is no problem- they are generating tons of extra CO2 from increased muscle activity that balances the situation. In a plane, there would only a limited increase in CO2 generation from the extra activity of diaphragm and chest wall muscles. A very specific, practiced technique for it might help, but I don't really know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DXB Posted September 22, 2015 Report Share Posted September 22, 2015 Dev I seriously appreciate your knowledge more importantly sharing it with the forum, I learned quite a bit from it. That must be a great Holiday Inn your staying at Dan Thank you Dan- I've experienced a ton of generosity from the Mooney community in general and invaluable help from this forum in particular since purchasing my plane last year. I was a very green pilot at the time and way over my head- actually still am. I'm glad to see an area where I can contribute a little.more, as my knowledge is inch deep at best on just about every other topic here. I always found physiology more enjoyable than the rest of medical learning because it doesn't require as much discrete knowledge, just understanding a handful of principles whose integrated application gets you pretty far in a number of contexts. It's fun to try to put it together with the experiences of the real pilots on here. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabremech Posted September 22, 2015 Report Share Posted September 22, 2015 On my way to UND right now and will get to experience hypoxia tomorrow. I'll share what I learn about my experience later this week. David 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted September 22, 2015 Report Share Posted September 22, 2015 Dev I seriously appreciate your knowledge more importantly sharing it with the forum, I learned quite a bit from it. I've learned that I am as unready for the Flight Levels as my little C is! It has been interesting reading, and certainly educational. This engineer made it from high school through Masters without even basic biology, so there's not much I can contribute to the whole hypoxia discussion . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted September 22, 2015 Report Share Posted September 22, 2015 (edited) David try to take some pictures of your Oximeter while doing the exercise... the task saturation will probably creep up quickly as well as the sense of time passing going off kilter will make it incredibly difficult... most pilots can focus on several things at one time, like time, speed, altitude, direction, tune a radio, give a position report... Lower oxygen SEEMS to remove the ability to do some or ALL of the multitasking capabilities SIMILAR to having a few adult beverages... Like adult beverages: feeling good, unable to multi task, sense of timing lost, can't recognize the effect, headaches, followed by passing out... Unlike adult beverages: sober up quickly using O2, no spills, no barf to clean up... I don't recall how alcohol alters the absorption and use of O2 by the brain, but there seem to be some similarities to me. Including the individualized nature of the effects. To be clear, these are my non-scientific observations. This does not imply that anyone was drinking while flying. Could be the beers I had while staying at the Holliday inn in Indy (Train Cars if you are familiar?). Best regards, -a- Edited September 22, 2015 by carusoam 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bennett Posted September 22, 2015 Report Share Posted September 22, 2015 Great discussions. I'm 80 this year, and in good health in mind and body, but I no longer fly above 15,000', and mostly in the 8-10,000' range in my J. I find that in spite of my good health, I can feel a bit lightheaded and a bit hypoxic at altitudes above 10,000', and I will use supplemental oxygen. This was not always the case, and 10-20 years ago I felt quite well at much higher altitudes. Some years ago, I, and two pilot friends, (who are members of this forum), climbed Kilimanjaro together. We did a six day climb and each day we climbed to our next planned camp, and then half way back down to acclimatize ourselves to the ever higher altitudes. We were all fine until about 18,000' when we started taking Diamox. Quite trippy, literally, and figuratively, and we made it to both Gillman and Uruhu peaks. Quite a few other climbers in different groups (we were alone, except for a guide), suffered edemas - cerebral or pulmonary, and had to descend immediately.Speaking for myself, at the peak, I had tunnel vision of sorts, color "confusion", and I wouldn't have wanted to have taken an IQ test at that time. Back down to sea level, and even well before, we were all as normal as a couple of Mooney plots can be. Daiamox helped, I'm sure, but a portable tank of O2 would have been much better, although I would not have wanted to carry the tank. In reflection, perhaps a small portable aluminum tank would have been great for the last 1000' feet or so of the ascent. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted September 22, 2015 Report Share Posted September 22, 2015 (edited) I enjoyed Carl's blood gas problem because it lets you integrate concepts relating short term and long term adaptations to altitude. All other physiologic factors being equal, Ross should have an even lower PaO2 while cruising along at 14,000 than the guy in the problem above, who's had 6 days to acclimate by dumping some HCO3 into his urine so he can blow off more CO2 without raising his pH too much. But Ross might still feel pretty good at 14,000 and only be subtly impaired. Meanwhile Danb might be getting into real trouble at the same altitude without O2, even if he manages to maintain the same PaO2 as Ross. How individual people fare at these intermediate altitudes seems kinda unpredictable - clearly SaO2 and PaO2 as correlates of hypoxia are part of it, but they don't tell the whole story. Susceptibility to altitude sickness seems rather poorly understood. Dev, you are absolutely correct. One night we camped at Vogelsang pass (10,300') in the Sierra. We had all traveled from the bay that morning and in addition to car climb hiked a strenuous 7 miles and 3000' undulating climb to the peak (11,400'). I was absolutely exhausted, but had trouble sleeping. No headache, just a restlessness. Everyone had some sort of symptom. We had a marathon runner in the group and he was the worst. He had a persistent cough that turned into vomiting episode. He was disgusted with me, because I was smoking a cigarette and sipping a premade manhattan from a nalgene bottle... After a few days we all settled in. I have since realized that smoking is idiotic and have no use for it. I have never felt Euphoric at altitude. It has always been painful when there's exertion involved. What I have felt are my systems shutting down. Loss of strength, agility, balance and oddly the ability to grip things tightly. These symptoms likely had as much to do with dehydration as lack of O2. However, combined they can take their toll on one's ability to function. One should always have hydration in the cockpit at altitude. Edited September 22, 2015 by Shadrach 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted September 23, 2015 Report Share Posted September 23, 2015 From the interesting resource of the MAPA Manual...(Dr. Robert Achtel) They gave a chart with some guidance. Not as good as getting it direct from a few good doctors on MS. But helps with a printed guide line... Unfortunately I was unable to copy the chart, and I simplified much of the detail here... 98% to 90% vision issues 90% to 80% drowsiness and poor judgement 80% to 70% cognitive impairment (thought process) 70% to 60% physical impairment (cardio vascular challenges) below these numbers they use the words 'nervous system failure, convulsions and death' it seems important to stay as high as practical at all times on this chart. Get a copy of the MAPA Manual. Don't rely on my post. I am only a PP... best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DXB Posted September 23, 2015 Report Share Posted September 23, 2015 Dev, you are absolutely correct. One night we camped at Vogelsang pass (10,300') in the Sierra. We had all traveled from the bay that morning and in addition to car climb hiked a strenuous 7 miles and 3000' undulating climb to the peak (11,400'). I was absolutely exhausted, but had trouble sleeping. No headache, just a restlessness. Everyone had some sort of symptom. We had a marathon runner in the group and he was the worst. He had a persistent cough that turned into vomiting episode. He was disgusted with me, because I was smoking a cigarette and sipping a premade manhattan from a nalgene bottle... After a few days we all settled in. I have since realized that smoking is idiotic and have no use for it. I have never felt Euphoric at altitude. It has always been painful when there's exertion involved. What I have felt are my systems shutting down. Loss of strength, agility, balance and oddly the ability to grip things tightly. These symptoms likely had as much to do with dehydration as lack of O2. However, combined they can take their toll on one's ability to function. One should always have hydration in the cockpit at altitude. Chuckle- please add "mocking the marathoner who's susceptible to mountain sickness by lighting up a cigarette" to your list of don'ts at altitude . But seriously, when it gets to the puking stage, things might deteriorate fast with pulmonary and cerebral edema, and it's time to hustle him down the mountain. Also vomiting dumps acid from your stomach and makes the alkalosis worse, thus further decreasing tolerance for hyperventilation to control hypoxia. I doubt there's many smokers in the pilot population any more, but they should remember that the chronic low grade CO poisoning they have won't show up in their Sat monitor. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabremech Posted September 24, 2015 Report Share Posted September 24, 2015 Today at UND, we did the hypoxia experience and it was interesting. There's a lot to take in as far a what they teach you, but my pulse oximeter was at 59 the last time I looked at it and then shortly there after put my mask back on. Tomorrow we do the rapid decompression in the chamber. I'll try to put more thoughts from my experience here later in the week when I'm back home. David 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danb Posted September 24, 2015 Report Share Posted September 24, 2015 As stated earlier by a few of us regarding if it was appropriate to critique, criticize etc,,,by the sad outcome of Dr Moir's flight and subsequent loss. apparently a wealth of knowledge was released by members of the forum and the criticism along with speculation of what might have occurred has resulted in one of the most informative topics ( plus the importance and consequences of hypoxia)...that I have seen in the couple yrs. I've followed it. We IMHO have all grown from this tragedy and I for one has gained quite a bit of information to comprehend. im sure the Doc and his wife would be extremely happy that maybe some good plus possibly a life or 2 may be saved by our discussion. There has been no disrespect to the Dr and I for one am glad the knowledge that some know has been shared.. thank you to all who has contributed there vast awareness of high flying... 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peevee Posted September 24, 2015 Report Share Posted September 24, 2015 (edited) On my way to UND right now and will get to experience hypoxia tomorrow. I'll share what I learn about my experience later this week. David tell doc jensen hi. took 2 or 3 classes from him in the early 2ks. the decompression is fun. Edited September 24, 2015 by peevee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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