Alex's M20D (continuous thread)

[Pictreed]

On July 7, 2016 at 3:59 PM, Raptor05121 said:

I'm not going to lie, I should have skipped buying this plane. In the year I've had it, I could've saved $10,000 and put a down payment on a nice, turn-key, $40k example with GPS.

Ok...back the regret wagon up.  You will be happier down the road once it's done.  

I spent more than twice what you did on my plane purchase just to find out most of my wires were 'burned', the KX155 is junk, and the fuses are the wrong size for the equipment they are running.  I knew I was going to do a full avionics upgrade but didn't know it would be so soon.

I've got a total of 6 hours in my plane and it's been in the shop for a month.  It's very frustrating but when two separate avionics guys tell me there's problems under the dash I told them do what it takes to make it right. 

I think avionics repairs are the worst at estimating time wise because you never know what you'll see.  On the bright side I get all that Mickey Mouse crap that everyone before me said, 'oh that's easy, I can install that GPS...blah blah blah'. 

I find myself looking at planes for sale and think it would have been better to buy this or that.  But on further inspection I find everything to be worse than what I started with unless I spend $150k or more and it still may not be what I want or still have issues. 

Now I've vented a bit, hopefully you'll find some comfort in some of these realizations. Ultimately we will have newer equipment we won't have to worry about for a long time. 

You got a good deal and yes it will take some time to get it fixed up but it will be worth it. 

Tim

[Yetti]

These are old machines that we are taking up in the air.   I probably paid too much for mine and it was not in airworthy shape even though it just had an annual.   Flew it home and it sat while the guy I was working with could get to it.  Now that I have been through it, it makes me happier to know that things are good up there.   Did an oil change and cleaned and gapped spark plugs last weekend.  Took it out for a flight and low and behold the EGT gauge is gone haywire so just another thing to fix.

We really want your plane to fly again.  It will and you will be happy.

There is a running list of things to fix....  It does not get shorter.

 

[MyNameIsNobody]

Most "Vintage" owners have been where you are to varying degrees.  I spent a LOT (to me) of AMU's on my hanger queen.  It took a co-owner and about a decade to not only sort the "issues", but to also upgrade panel and firewall forward to make the plane a reliable cross-country machine.  There are musts and there are wants.  We have been "must free" for three annuals.  That is a good and satisfying place to be.  I bought a lot of "used" avionics that have all worked out.  I saved a lot going down this route.  I wish you success getting her back in the air.  There IS a light at the end of the tunnel.  Unfortunately 50 year old machines, especially those that were idle, often require re-building and replacing of just about every system to achieve a level of reliability that rivals...60's vehicles.  Is what it is.  They are what they are.  I still love my Mooney and tell her thank you as I turn out the light and close the hanger door.  (Usually in a whisper, because I know she is tired from her 2-4 hour cross country trips and I don't want the neighbors to know what I already do-"That I am Plane nuts".

[Raptor05121]

You guys are awesome. I was starting to feel down about the whole thing but you're exactly right. I'm sure a few years from now I'll be looking back at this as a positive learning experience.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Raptor05121 said:

You guys are awesome. I was starting to feel down about the whole thing but you're exactly right. I'm sure a few years from now I'll be looking back at this as a positive learning experience.

Not sure where in Florida you are?  If not far from Daytona perhaps you can get Jake Cemens to come by and give some guidance on getting you flying.

Clarence

[Raptor05121]

I'm between Jax and Tallahassee. Daytona is a 35 minute (Cherokee) flight.

[jkhirsch]

I'm based at KVDF now.

Do you have a list of what's left to be done to your plane?

[Raptor05121]

The latest I've heard is they had to restrip the tanks and try a new sealant. AFAIK, the tanks and interior were the last two things.

[Raptor05121]

I've been browsing for months, and managed to snipe a deal.

PS Engineer PMA7000-B audio panel, rack, and connectors. It was on ebay for $500, talked him down to $475.

My plan is to take it to an avionics shop and have this installed while the interior is still out of the aircraft and also have the old radio swapped out with my Narco -12 from the Cherokee

[Andy95W]

Nice find!  

You don't really need an avionics shop to install the audio panel (or practically any avionics), just an A&P who is willing and able.  

The avionics shop would prefer that you bought the equipment from them, but will appreciate that the interior was out.

[Raptor05121]

Progress, finally!

I went over and helped my mechanic with finishing the tanks. We spent the better part of all day scraping, scraping, scraping. Dentist tools really came in handy here. There is some residual around rivet heads and crevasses, but his plan is to use a soda blaster and baking soda to remove what's left. Then rinse with some type of acetone, seal, and pressure test with an air tank. Once we verify that its holding, we will be fueling from empty to A.) make a fuel dipping stick, and B.) see how many gallons mine holds. With the amount of detail we have gone into with removing the THREE layers of re-applied sealant, I think this should have me sealed for quite a few years.

On a side note, it is interesting to see the layout of these tanks. The sump doesn't appear to be THE lowest point in the system, it looks like a little bit of water could sit lower. And the pickup seems to be quite high, maybe 1 gal unuseable?

Also, with the 63s having only 48 gallons and the 65s having 52 gallons, what did Mooney do to add 4 gallons a side? I can't see any way they could have expanded the tanks? My wanting to stick the tanks on initial fill-up are to see if mine hold the same, maybe the marketing department decided to "one-up" Piper with their 50 gal tanks just to make the M20C better? Anyone know?

I've also noticed he's installed the carpet around the nose gear well and my new PAI-700 compass up top, as well as insulation already in place. I'm really hoping I'll be able to make the Mooney Summit.

(You can see the pick-up tube here, its about an inch from the bottom- and the sump is that nut-looking thing sticking up.)

[carusoam]

Nice details, Alex.

Check to see if you have the stainless steel insert at the top of the tank.  The originals were made of mild steal and have a tendency to rust out.

i'm not sure of the volume changes, but in the long bodies the variation of the fuel neck is a large difference in gallons between the Eagles and the Ovations.

Keep an extra eye on the small holes between tank sections, don't let them get filled in.

check the Mooney time line to see if they have details.  The maintenance manual may have something as well...

Best regards,

-a-

[bradp]

Alex are you doing anything with your fuel senders? 

[Raptor05121]

15 minutes ago, bradp said:

Alex are you doing anything with your fuel senders? 

If you go to page 3 HERE and scroll half way down you will see where I cleaned them up and put new gaskets on them. As far as overhauling, I'll ask the IA about it. Anything in particular you're asking about?

[Raptor05121]

2 hours ago, carusoam said:

Nice details, Alex.

Check to see if you have the stainless steel insert at the top of the tank.  The originals were made of mild steal and have a tendency to rust out.

 

 

What steel inserts? What do they look like?

[RLCarter]

Getting really close, you have been doing a fantastic job getting your bird back where it belongs, in the air!

 

[carusoam]

The part that the fuel cap sets into.  It is a piece that is riveted to the top surface of the wing.

my 65C had rust bits flaking off and falling to the bottom of the tank.  Then a crack opened up to allow rainwater to drain into the tank. 

It was a bit of a challenge to see what was going on.  Much better when you are indoors and have a light and know what to look for...

Seeing your photos reminded me of how much water is actually in the tank below the drain.   I was blissfully thinking the drain was at the low point.

Best regards,

-a-

[Raptor05121]

1 hour ago, carusoam said:

The part that the fuel cap sets into.  It is a piece that is riveted to the top surface of the wing.

my 65C had rust bits flaking off and falling to the bottom of the tank.  Then a crack opened up to allow rainwater to drain into the tank. 

It was a bit of a challenge to see what was going on.  Much better when you are indoors and have a light and know what to look for...

Seeing your photos reminded me of how much water is actually in the tank below the drain.   I was blissfully thinking the drain was at the low point.

Best regards,

-a-

 

I'll check it out.

I just wanted to take this time and thank everyone so far. A LOT of you have been giving helpful tips as things have rolled along here. Others gave an encouraging push. Even those lurkers that are reading and not posting, I hope you enjoy the show.

Its the final countdown

[Patto]

I admit to lurking. Thanks for all the informative posts. Can't wait for you to be able to fly it!

[cctsurf]

The difference in gallons between the early Mooneys and the later ones is the fuel cap location.  The earlier ones are set into the tank under a cover (thermos style), the later ones are flush with the skin.

I'm interested in where this steel is on my Mooney, so I can check it.

Old Style (set under a cover in the wing):

Newer Style:

[DaV8or]

On September 4, 2015 at 8:52 AM, MyNameIsNobody said:

One of the better paint schemes I have seen on a vintage round window bird. I REALLY like the scheme. I think that is what Ross was saying. Don't change it. Looks fast sitting still

It's basically the 201 scheme from the late '70s and early '80s. It is a good scheme and I like it too.

[Raptor05121]

58 minutes ago, cctsurf said:

The difference in gallons between the early Mooneys and the later ones is the fuel cap location. 

 

I can't believe they can manage another 4 gallons just by changing the cap! Like I said, I'm curious what I can actually squeeze into mine

Just now, DaV8or said:

It's basically the 201 scheme from the late '70s and early '80s. It is a good scheme and I like it too.

Thanks, I do like it

[cctsurf]

1 hour ago, Raptor05121 said:

I can't believe they can manage another 4 gallons just by changing the cap! Like I said, I'm curious what I can actually squeeze into mine

If you look at the picture, the flush cap is flush with the skin, about 2 inches higher in the tank than the cap in our tanks.  I also think the cap is thinner.  It makes a big difference.  When you multiply that 2 inches by the area of the tank, you get 4 gallons.

OTOH, as far as I understand, with the flush caps, if you ever sit out in rain and want to fill fuel, you have to be --very-- careful to blow the water out around the cap or you will have water in your tanks.

I thought about seeing if I could fit a new filler into our old tanks, maybe if I have nothing more pressing on my plane at some point, but I doubt I will.  At this point it seems like needless work.  My tanks are larger than my bladder anyway.

Edited September 9, 2016 by cctsurf
Clarification

[carusoam]

CCTSurf,

Nice pictures.  The access panel looks remarkably new compared to the wing skin around it.  It is possible that somebody has swapped out the whole assembly....

Assembly:  Access panel, fuel neck, cap and sealant.   The fuel neck is a pressed (pressure shaped) piece of steel.  Older ones were made of mild steel.  New technology allowed for making them out of SS later on.  Nice to have, but terribly expensive.

When stored outside a small amount of moisture fills the area around the cap, down to the O-ring (you can see in your cap picture).  That would be the area that is susceptible to rust and degradation.  The oxidation attacks deep into the sheet metal  because of the internal stresses left from the forming process. The forming process essentially generates some deep micro cracks.

Describing my 65C's challenge the best I can...

Best regards,

-a-

[mooniac15u]

31 minutes ago, cctsurf said:

If you look at the picture, the flush cap is about 2 inches higher than the cap in our tanks.  And I think it is thinner.  It makes a big difference.  When you multiply that 2 inches by the area of the tank, you get 4 gallons.

OTOH, as far as I understand, with the flush caps, if you ever sit out in rain and want to fill fuel, you have to be --very-- careful to blow the water out around the cap or you will have water in your tanks.

I thought about seeing if I could fit a new filler into our old tanks, maybe if I have nothing more pressing on my plane at some point, but I doubt I will.  At this point it seems like needless work.  My tanks are larger than my bladder anyway.

I think it's more than just the depth of the caps.  If I recall correctly on the early models the caps sat lower in a compartment with a cover that you had to open to access the cap.

My 1963 M20D had already been converted to bladders by a previous owner but there were a couple of odd shaped panels on the top of the wing that I believe used to be fuel access doors.