Comparing airplanes

[Glen Quagmire]

Hello all!

This is my first post on this forum. I have been wanting to get an airplane for quite a while, but I'm now starting to consider it more seriously. I'm trying to read up on as many aspects of aircraft ownership as I can. I *think* I've got it narrowed down to between two airplanes: The Beech V35TC, and the Mooney 252. (I know this is a Mooney forum, please don't hate me yet-I'm posting this on the Beech site too).

Ultimately, I think I would be happiest with a turbo'd Beech 36, but it seems that most of them are a bit too spendy for me at the moment.

Here's my thoughts: I live on the front range of the rockies, south of Denver. MOST of my flying will be to the east, for long distances-probably most frequently to western NC. BUT, I would like the ability to go westbound without having too much in the way of altitude issues, hence wanting a turbocharged model. It would also be nice to be able to get up high and take advantage of the winds when headed east.

I have flown non-turbocharged Mooneys in the past-I got my instrument rating and later instructed in M20Js. I have several hundred hours in them, and I feel that I "know" them well enough. I am aware that they are more cramped inside, especially for the rear-seaters. My kids, however, are currently young, and small. Even as they age, I don't see them getting all that tall due to their genetics.  I found a sample weight and balance for a 252 after a google search turned up a flying club with one; I've run the numbers every which way (from just me to all of us, with both full tanks and down to reserves) and I stay completely within the CG limits at all times. And at least for now while the kids are little, I can load the full 52GAL, all of us, and 75 pounds worth of bags and remain under MGTOW. I've been unable to find a POH/AFM with the performance data to look at.

On the other hand, I have literally ZERO experience with Beech products, aside from seeing them on the ramp. I've never been in one, let alone flown one. I'm still trying to find V35TC data (W&B and/or performance) to look at.

I am looking for one of y'all to hopefully shed a little light on the Mooney ownership experience. Are there any issues that I should be aware of? How hard is it for find a competent mechanic for one? How is insurance for them? (I am an ATP with 11,000+ hours and I fly for a living, but my recent GA experience is limited to getting a tailwheel endorsement in a Citabria). I know that the Beech will be more expensive to operate, but that would be offset at least a bit by the fact that I could bring the dog with me on trips and not have to kennel him at $50+/night-I couldn't fit him in the 252 with us and bags.

Any insights into the buying process in general are appreciated. Even if it turns out that I can't get a "travel" airplane at the moment, I still plan to at least get something fun that I can fly locally on the weekends with my kids, for the hamburger runs, drilling holes in the sky, etc. I know that's vague, but really, all information is appreciated.

[Raptor05121]

I've never flown a Beech, but I hear they are VERY limited on the CG. With full tanks, they are 2-person airplanes and varying luggage to balance it out. Just my $0.02.

[kerry]

Another plane you can compare is a TC viking.  Thats if you have a hanger. 

[M20F]

TN Bonanza would be a better option given your mission but a 252 is going to be a much cheaper capital investment. There are some nice TN Commanches out there as well which if you can find the right one would be the best of both worlds. How much are you looking to spend?

[Glen Quagmire]

Another plane you can compare is a TC viking.  Thats if you have a hanger. 

 

I had thought about a viking a while back before I realized how much I felt I'd want a TC aircraft.  I didn't realize that Bellanca made a TC version.  Regardless of which aircraft I ultimately go with, I will keep it hangared.  The hail out here can be vicious.  How much maintenance does the fabric wing add, and does it need a significantly greater amount of TLC?

 

TN Bonanza would be a better option given your mission but a 252 is going to be a much cheaper capital investment. There are some nice TN Commanches out there as well which if you can find the right one would be the best of both worlds. How much are you looking to spend?

 

I also didn't realize that Piper made a TN version of the Comanche.  I knew they had the 400...but I couldn't imagine trying to feed (or maintain) an IO-720!  I'm still trying to kind of get the financial picture down.  I'm kind of thinking in my head that 120 would be a cap.  There's a V35TC listed now for 105 that just had a top not that long ago, and a 530 in the panel that would take care of me well for a while.

[jackn]

Hi Glen,

 

Like you, when I was in the market for a traveling machine, It had to meet two criteria. First, it had to fly the Rockies and second, it had to be fun to fly around home(NY). I looked at Cirrus and Beech. I had flown both, then I flew a NA M20E around Aspen and was hooked. It was much more fun to fly. Cirrus felt like a Jettson mobile and the Beech A36, well, just wasn't for me. V-Tails look nice. I knew I wanted a Turbo for the obvious safety issue, and not having to look for outside lift to get up high. I chose a 252 Encore. It has been a good decision.

There is a Mooney Service Center at Centenial, I think it's Arapaho Air. I would speak with them. Insurance is $2,000 per year. I do my own 'Owner Assisted Annual' now. I would recommend that if you have the time. You'll know your plane much better and you can take the time you need to keep everthing working the way it should.

 

Jack

[Jeff H.]

So, you're fond of cults.  In summary, Cult of the Mooney or Cult of the Bonanza?

 

I've owned an '81 Rocket for one year.  Right now it's undergoing my first Annual.  Unexpected out of pocket costs for the first year have been minimal - which I attribute to the fine care the previous owner provided to the aircraft (and a little to my obsession in finding a plane I hoped would present few problems in the first ownership year).

 

- Patience and persistence:  (Obvious, I know)  Looked at many planes and reviewed logs/annual and ordered the FAA docs on CD for a few before deciding and buying.

- Pre-Buy:  My process was a disaster - primarily because I hadn't identified a good source(s) before getting serious.  If you're looking in specific geographic areas, identify and vet your pre-buy resource now.

- Insurance:  You have 11,000 hours - I can't see how this will be a problem.  I bought my Rocket before getting my ASEL certificate.  I got insurance.  I get my first born back in a couple years . . . AOPA and Falcon provided quotes - went with Falcon, just renewed and am very happy with their service.

- Resources:  Most disappointing ownership issue so far has been finding service resources.  It's been tough for me - don't know if that's just me or in general.  Non-responsive mechanical/avionics/instruction resources.  Have to try two or three places to get someone to take my money.  Unprofessional/unpolished service.  Possible that my expectations have been too high.  Again, for Beech or Mooney identify good local resources before you buy.  Arapahoe Aviation in Englewood, CO maintained my plane for the previous owner and has a great reputation. 

- Flying high with two small children and a dog?  Uhhh . . . Hopefully we're working from different definitions of flying high.  For cross country flights (Texas - Missouri, for example) I'm at 16 - 17,000, on oxygen.

- Costs:  Biggest cost for me was making my plane "my own" -- 1/2 panel avionics upgrade at $30k.  Accessories (oxygen kits, headsets, handheld radio, bags, avionics subscriptions, etc.) at $5k.  Hangar costs at $400/mo.  Occasional $50/night costs for animal boarding will not have a material impact on your annual costs.

 

Cousin owned a V-tail Bonanza.  Loved it.  Not nearly the Rocket (or 252) performance.  Was making an identical decision as you when I bought - got the Mooney because it met all my needs before I found a Bonanza that met my needs.  Would suggest that approach worked out - set my criteria including equipment, history, remaining engine time, price range, etc. and found a plane that matched.  I don't think you'll be unhappy with either choice.

 

I truly love having a plane.  Sure you will, too.  PM me if you have other specific questions.  Good luck!

[kerry]

I had thought about a viking a while back before I realized how much I felt I'd want a TC aircraft.  I didn't realize that Bellanca made a TC version.  Regardless of which aircraft I ultimately go with, I will keep it hangared.  The hail out here can be vicious.  How much maintenance does the fabric wing add, and does it need a significantly greater amount of TLC?

 

 

I also didn't realize that Piper made a TN version of the Comanche.  I knew they had the 400...but I couldn't imagine trying to feed (or maintain) an IO-720!  I'm still trying to kind of get the financial picture down.  I'm kind of thinking in my head that 120 would be a cap.  There's a V35TC listed now for 105 that just had a top not that long ago, and a 530 in the panel that would take care of me well for a while.

Bellanca does have a TC.  If hail damage occurs to a metal plane forget it.  If it happens to fabric its an easy fix.  A Viking might be worth looking at.  I would talk to some viking owners before you rule it out.  You can get some great deals on them.  

[Hank]

Be aware that the 252 carries more than "the full 52 gal" of fuel. Starting with the F, tanks went to 64 gal with various increases and long range options since then. Seems like the popular sizes are 64, 75? and 89 gals, with two options for 100+. This will change your W&B calculations!

I also agree that the occasional $50 boarding cost (OMG! That's high!) will disappear in the noise of operating expenses, to say nothing of fixed expenses (insurance, GPS data, hangar, annual, pitot static tests, etc.).

Find a plane that meets your condition requirements, is priced reasonably, has good logs and can be expected to pass a good pre-purchase inspection from someone who knows the type. Then buy it! Simple, right?

Good luck, and enjoy the search! Buy right, fly safe.

[DonMuncy]

I have no experience with Bonanza, but I keep up with their forum. From what I read, my impression is that the parts availability, repair costs, finding capable A&Ps, and insurance costs are likely to be close enough to not be significant. The differences appear to me to be (1) speed - Bonanzas likely to win by a little, but different years can shift it enough that its not too important. (2) Center of gravity problems are significant but not insurmountable in the Bo - almost non-existant in Mooneys (3) Fuel burn - Mooneys win hands down. (4) Interior space - Bonanzas appear to be much roomier. Mooneys are difficult to get into, but once seated, have plenty of room. Strictly your choice. (5)Bonanzas cover up pilot ineptitude in landing, whereas Mooneys require care or will embarrass the pilot.

These are all my opinions based on little actual information, so utilize at your own risk.

[gsxrpilot]

I flew a Bo for a couple of years and now own a Mooney. The W&B will be the difference. With the Bo I did full W&B calculations and plotting EVERY flight. It's easy to take off just fine and return out of CG. With the Mooney you can just about forget how to do a W&B. You'll never need it. As long as I'm not over gross weight at take off, we're fine.

[Guest]

"I also didn't realize that Piper made a TN version of the Comanche. I knew they had the 400...but I couldn't imagine trying to feed (or maintain) an IO-720! I'm still trying to kind of get the financial picture down. I'm kind of thinking in my head that 120 would be a cap. There's a V35TC listed now for 105 that just had a top not that long ago, and a 530 in the panel that would take care of me well for a while."

I own a Comanche 400 and I would have it before either of you choices above! It will out perform them in every way other than max cruise at turbocharged altitudes and they can be had for half the initial cost. The engine won't cost any more to overhaul than either of a the turbo versions either.

If you really want a turbo 400, there was one in South Dakota.

Clarence

[Danb]

Paul a real good friend of mine has a Bo and I believe you've hit the potential problem in the head, he is always figuring his cg problems at the end of his flights, while he may have a higher useful load his is actually not useful, on a few trips my little mooney he asked if I could take some of his stuff because his cg will shift to much at the end of our flights. He also got tired of me waiting for his faster Bo?

Never could figure that part out when we passed him in the sky and at the pump..I think our 160 is slower than there 170...btw his Bo is a nice plane just they like to break our balls for some reason..

[Tony Armour]

Get a Bravo and take the dog too. Problem solved....you're welcome :-)

[MB65E]

I was just going to say M20M too!!

Feeding it would be as expensive at the B36TC, but I think overall it would be a better airplane.

I'm sure you could get into one for less than the B36TC.

Either way, the m20m and the B36tC are probably the 2 best TC GA airplanes around!!

-Matt

[pinerunner]

One thing about the Bonanzas is they sit up a little higher and they're famous for having rugged gear. I think most of them are rated utility while the Mooney is not. If I were to be going into dirt or grass strips I might want a Bonanza instead of my Mooney. The prop on my M20E is just a few inches from the ground and might be more likely to pick up pebbles etc.  I recall one case here where a bit of a depression in the taxi-way caused a prop strike. 

 

I consider the Mooneys to be basically airport aircraft. I may bring mine into a grass strip but I'll be very picky about the condition of the strip. One stupid mowed over depression could ruin my day.  I'd go with a Bonanza if I were going back and forth to the back country. Actually I'd go with a Cessna 180 but those are so popular as bush planes the Bonanza might be cheaper.

 

My Mooney's "mission" doesn't include dirt or grass strips and I really dig the efficiency and choice between go fast or slow down and much longer range.  I also just like the way it feels in the air. Solid on the control. I get a kick when I take off light and get up to altitude fast. I apparently made the 182 loaded with jumpers look kind of sick.  Not fair, but I didn't point that out to the ground workers who were oohing and ahhing over my "hot" plane.  

 

Forgive me father, for I have sinned. 

[gsxrpilot]

One thing about the Bonanzas is they sit up a little higher and they're famous for having rugged gear. I think most of them are rated utility while the Mooney is not. If I were to be going into dirt or grass strips I might want a Bonanza instead of my Mooney. The prop on my M20E is just a few inches from the ground and might be more likely to pick up pebbles etc.  I recall one case here where a bit of a depression in the taxi-way caused a prop strike. 

 

I consider the Mooneys to be basically airport aircraft. I may bring mine into a grass strip but I'll be very picky about the condition of the strip. One stupid mowed over depression could ruin my day.  I'd go with a Bonanza if I were going back and forth to the back country. Actually I'd go with a Cessna 180 but those are so popular as bush planes the Bonanza might be cheaper.

 

My Mooney's "mission" doesn't include dirt or grass strips and I really dig the efficiency and choice between go fast or slow down and much longer range. 

 

Check with Piperpainter about that... 

 

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCeV3nI-kcmpeSzrBYOnMcdw

[PMcClure]

I had a B36TC for about 2 years and have owned a Mooney for about 5 years (both an F and R). The Bonanza was a great aircraft, rugged and fun to fly. I never had a CG issue loading it. I heard this a lot before I bought the Bo but never experienced it. It may be a problem with older aircraft?  My complaint on the Bonanza was the cost to fly it. Both fuel and maintenance. Also useful load was a serious problem. It uses more fuel, therefore you had to carry more fuel. I rarely could use 5 seats and never the 6 (I even took it out and stored it in the hanger). Even with 4 seats filled, I had to land about every 2 hours. But the cabin was roomy and comfortable and it felt very solid to fly. The rear cabin door is a huge plus. I sold it because the maintenance was a hog. Parts are double and the 520 engine is far inferior to the 550 (IMO). The Bo was easier to fly and land, very forgiving. 

 

Comparing the two, Mooney R is less expensive to acquire (about 30% less for the same aircraft capability), faster, uses less fuel, is less expensive to operate, maintain and insure. It does have a smaller cabin and you can't put 4 adults and a dog and luggage with full fuel, but you don't need the full fuel to go a long distance. 

 

The Bo ws easier to fly and land, very forgiving. The M20F is still the most capable aircraft in terms of load and distance of all three aircraft I have owned. It was also the cheapest to own and operate. 

[Marauder]

One thing about the Bonanzas is they sit up a little higher and they're famous for having rugged gear. I think most of them are rated utility while the Mooney is not. If I were to be going into dirt or grass strips I might want a Bonanza instead of my Mooney. The prop on my M20E is just a few inches from the ground and might be more likely to pick up pebbles etc. I recall one case here where a bit of a depression in the taxi-way caused a prop strike.

I consider the Mooneys to be basically airport aircraft. I may bring mine into a grass strip but I'll be very picky about the condition of the strip. One stupid mowed over depression could ruin my day. I'd go with a Bonanza if I were going back and forth to the back country. Actually I'd go with a Cessna 180 but those are so popular as bush planes the Bonanza might be cheaper.

My Mooney's "mission" doesn't include dirt or grass strips and I really dig the efficiency and choice between go fast or slow down and much longer range. I also just like the way it feels in the air. Solid on the control. I get a kick when I take off light and get up to altitude fast. I apparently made the 182 loaded with jumpers look kind of sick. Not fair, but I didn't point that out to the ground workers who were oohing and ahhing over my "hot" plane.

Forgive me father, for I have sinned.

For your penance, say "Mooneys are fast, fun and fuel efficient" 100 times. -- and sin no more...

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Hank]

For your penance, say "Mooneys are fast, fun and fuel efficient" 100 times loudly at the airport -- and sin no more like this again...

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

Fixed it for you! We all have to help keep up our reputation, right?

 

Try that same move on a cold winter day ["cold" means well below freezing; single-digit-temp climbs, solo with half tanks, are unbelievable!].

[Greg252AY]

The bonanza was the other airplane I was looking at before buying my 252. They are both great airplanes and I dont believe you can go wrong with either airplane. I was curious how we fit in a mooney so I went out and sat my family in one and found it to be just fine. We even take our dog. If you havent sat in a 252 you may be surprised how much room there is if you flew pre j models. 

[KSMooniac]

Keep in mind the 252 is eligible for the Encore conversion for fairly modest cost that will boost max gross weight +230 lbs, with most of that as useful load.  That will help tremendously with load/speed/range options.  The rear seats can be removed quickly as well to make a nice, flat cargo area that will hold a dog crate too.

[AndyFromCB]

Buy my Bravo. About to hit the market at $155,000 firm. About 3600 hours, about 200 since overhaul, everything works, everything overhauled in last 4 years. I have $220,000 in the airplane.

[carusoam]

Selecting a proper plane is an iterative exercise. I use a sliding scale of financial stamina vs speed, efficiency, and utility...

1) Check your financial stamina...

2) Select a plane: For speed and efficiency, go Mooney. Starting with M20A,B,C, or converted D...

3) Recheck your finances. Still have a few AMUs to spend?

4) You have three friends you want to take along. The C got stretched to fit four people. They called it the M20G.

5) You are already checking your credit score and things are good.

6) You like the additional benefits that come with fuel injection. They added FI to the C to make the ultimate Mooney for the retired couple, and called it the M20E.

7) you've looked into the piggy and there are a few AMUs that are calling out to be used.

8) You have friends and family, and are mechanically astute. You appreciate the FI that feeds the M20E. Mooney stretched the E for you, and called it the M20F.

9) You pay your bills at the end of every month, your know your credit score is high.

10) Speeding up and down the East Coast at moderate altitudes with family is what you do. You think the F is great, but prefer all the aero bits and pieces to be installed at the factory. Mooney built it's best NA product, the M20J. Some ingenious group added more HP, 300hp, and called it the Missile.

11) You get used to checking the balances in your self directed investment accounts, and 401Ks.

12) For ultimate speed with efficiency, go turbo Mooney. M20K and from that same ingenious group that built the Missile, they also built the TC'd version, called the Rocket. You recognize a pattern...ingenious people add real aftermarket tools to Mooneys. Then Mooney includes those tools at the factory....

13) Check your finances again. Still have a few chunks of AMUs to spend?

14) For ultimate speed, efficiency, and room for full size traveling families, go turbo long body Mooney. M20M Bravo, better than the TLS-Alfa. Long Body Mooneys are Chevy Tahoe spacious inside.

15) One more check of the finances. Have you decided to finance your plane?

16) For ultimate speed, efficiency, room for four, and a touch of modern luxury, go turbo normalized, long body, Mooney. M20TN

17) you've checked your finances and determined airplane finances are not a tremendous hurdle for you.

18) For ultimate speed, efficiency, room for four, the touch of modern luxury, and best climb rate into the flight levels, go TN'd, 310HP Acclaim!

19) you know your strong financial state, you're instrument rated, and want to travel in most weather conditions. Your ADSB weather and traffic is permanently displayed on a touch screen in the IP.

20) For the most deployable Mooney of your choice, add a FIKI system.

21) You slide all the way down the financial scale and decide to get off, prior to TNing your modern Long Body Mooney. The sweet spot of the NA current Mooney line up is the M20R and M20S. Go Ovation or Eagle!

22) Your finances are in a word or two, large enough. Large, spacious, cabins are more important to you than speed and efficiency, fly brand B.

23) Your finance manager doesn't understand flying, but magically feels comfortable enough in a plane with a parachute. Go brand C.

About me: I started with an M20C, got instrument rated, then moved to an M20R while looking for an M20J. I was inspired by a missile I had come across in my J search. The Continental IO550 adds some flexibility.

'That's all I have to say about that' - F. Gump

How does that sound?

Best regards,

-a-

[PMcClure]

I have come to the conclusion that there is no perfect plane. You really need 2, perhaps 3!