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Buying with incomplete airframe logs


bdavis171

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I'm currently looking at buying a 1971 Mooney. It's missing approximately 4 years of logs on the airframe. Thoughts? Should I just avoid it and move on? Other than the logs,it sounds like a great plane with low engine and prop hours.

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Prop log doesn't matter- plane doesn't have the same prop now as back then?.   Engine log does not matter at all, assuming a different serial number engine has gone in the plane after the logs were lost. If it currently has an overhaul of the same serial number, then it might be a consideration- could be hard to tell age of some components, particularly if it was overhauled or had major work during those 4 years. But if it's had another overhaul in subsequent years, this issue seems minor too. The airframe log does matter, particularly for checking damage history and its repair.  But an attentive pre-buy from a Mooney expert can generally sleuth out this stuff pretty easily anyway by looking at the plane.  I'd try to inquire why the logs are missing and any damage that might have happened during those 4 years.  Then if still feeling optimistic, I'd find a good pre-buy.  

 

Also, when I was first looking, I found it useful to get an experienced owner of the same model to look the plane over once as a favor. I was lucky to find another local M20C owner who was very happy to do it, and it gave me more confidence in talking further with the seller and deciding to spend my money on the prebuy.  There may be someone on here who could help you out...

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Essentially a new prop and a fresh overhaul. I believe it did have a gear up landing in the 80's,but has had another gear up recently that was fully repaired and documented.

I'm definitely doing a prebuy. The only issue I have is that the owner does not want to fly to another airfield for an inspection, so not sure how much of an expert a few of the local mechanics are there. I'm avoiding anyone who has worked on the plane in the past or knows the owner.

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Essentially a new prop and a fresh overhaul. I believe it did have a gear up landing in the 80's,but has had another gear up recently that was fully repaired and documented.

I'm definitely doing a prebuy. The only issue I have is that the owner does not want to fly to another airfield for an inspection, so not sure how much of an expert a few of the local mechanics are there. I'm avoiding anyone who has worked on the plane in the past or knows the owner.

That explains the new prop and overhaul...did a reputable Mooney shop do the recent airframe repair?   You definitely want the critical eye of a Mooney specialist on it either way for the prebuy.  If the owner was planning on selling shortly after the insurance covered a large part of the repair, he may not have cared much about the details in getting a complex job right.  Potential liabilities to you are big in this case.

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If you get serious, spend the little bit of money to have one of the services like Aero-Space provide a full report on accidents, registrations, 337's and the like. Anything that would have generated a 337, like major repairs, will pop out. You can also find chain of ownership for those missing years.

 

John

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Thanks guys,all helpful comments. He did have all his repairs done at LASAR, so that gives me some peace.

Sounds promising. In that case, the owner should have much less concern about getting an independent set of expert eyes on the plane.  It could be (1) the seller is being irrational and just needs some gentle convincing that it's in his interest (2) he has something  major to hide if (1) is not possible.  Others have made savvy suggestions on here on structuring purchase agreements that serve both parties well - i was too naive on this when I bought my plane.  

 

I've heard it said that gear up prop strike planes might be great bargains IF repaired meticulously, since they take a hit on value while also ending up much better planes after the work.  

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Let me share with you my experience. Before buying my mooney, I had a PA 28. I took care of the plane the same way I am taking care of my mooney. I invested a lot of time and money to have the plane up to the standards I liked. I kept my logbooks at home and never left them with my mechanic. One day my mechanic I had finalized the annual and the mechanic had to do the entry. I was late and I could not wait so I left my books with him. That night a fire engulfed his shop and I lost most of my logs and about 20 percent of the value of the plane. The new owner got himself a perfect PA 28 at a heavy discount. But I agreed to have the plane inspected by a mechanic of his choice and I even paid for it. Later on the new owner crashed the plane into a cornfield in PA. But that is a different story.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Essentially a new prop and a fresh overhaul. I believe it did have a gear up landing in the 80's,but has had another gear up recently that was fully repaired and documented.

I'm definitely doing a prebuy. The only issue I have is that the owner does not want to fly to another airfield for an inspection, so not sure how much of an expert a few of the local mechanics are there. I'm avoiding anyone who has worked on the plane in the past or knows the owner.

Let me get this straight:

The owner is selling an airplane with missing airframe logs and damage history? And on top of that he is unwilling to fly it to the facility of your choosing for an inspection??

Am I understanding you correctly?!

It's not your job to psychoanalyze the seller.

It's the seller's job to convince you! You're the buyer holding the money!

As a buyer you need to look for reasons NOT to buy a given airplane, and let the airplane talk to you. After you've looked at several they all start talking!

If a seller unwilling to fly it for an inspection isn't good enough reason to run away, I don't know what is!

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Agree on not getting too fixated on a single plane until having checked out a few.  But from what I've seen the inventory is low turnover for the old Mooneys, but there's also not many excellent planes to be had.  Good planes can be for sale by less than rational owners.  Making the effort to understand the seller is worth it- makes everything else go more smoothly.  Hope it works out.

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No offense Mr. Garmin , but if the price is low enough , then it may be worth going the extra mile on the buyers end....Lets get the whole story before we give advise .... Also is it missing 4 years of logs , or did it sit for 4 years....Generally aircraft that are missing logs are missing whole books not 5 or 6 pages...it is rare to have 4 years dedicated to a whole logbook .....I don't think that the poster is articulating the facts effectively......

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Supposedly he is missing 4 years of airframe logs.  I have decided to stop pursuing it any further as there are way too many red flags at this point.  Thanks for the help guys, you've essentially confirmed what I was skeptical about.  

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Supposedly he is missing 4 years of airframe logs.  I have decided to stop pursuing it any further as there are way too many red flags at this point.  Thanks for the help guys, you've essentially confirmed what I was skeptical about.

Excelent decision! Move forward and don't look back.

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To me, trust is a huge part of the transaction.

There are a lot of flakes/hustlers/crazy people out there selling airplanes.

If the seller gives off too many counterintuitive/irrational responses, I move on.

The vintage Mooney market is not booming, a patient buyer with cash can come up with a great plane, no reason to jump at the first plane you see...

best

Tim

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I purchased my Mooney with the first logbook missing covering about 6 years worth of maintenance. Short of the original paint colors being in that book, the rest of the airplanes history and more importantly it's current state of airworthiness could easily be determined. The AD's, 337's and the last 2 years of maintenance records are the important part, the rest are good bathroom reading and not referenced much anymore. I might be more concerned if this was a corporate jet, but not necessarily so for a $30k airframe.

David

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