King 256 Failure

[Releew]

Flying back today from Dallas to NOLA at 9.5K with the AP in the NAV select mode when the aircraft banked right and slight nose down.  I quickly disconnected the AP switch and recovered....No big deal.  I can't say is was focusing on the AI....all was perfect from a tracking standpoint and I tend to scan more on the engine readings. After all settled down I reengaged the AP and the KFC 150 locked in again and all was well.....until...  I noticed the AI starting to swing to the right and down.  Long story short I'm pretty sure its ready for a rebuild.

 

My question is.... what is the best alternative based on this groups collective knowledge....

• Rebuild about 3K installed and calibrated
• New about 8K installed and calibrated
• Wait for the Electronic King.....  Maybe available last quarter and 6K????
• Aspen twin pack for about 15K???

Money spent is always important.....  I'm as frugal as any, but I tend to spend on the beneficial equipment with real advantages over older technology.

 

All opinions appreciated.

 

Thanks,

 

Rick 

[gsxrpilot]

If its up for consideration, and since we're spending your money and not mine... Aspen of course.

[KSMooniac]

Single Aspen plus the EA100 to drive the autopilot.

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[FoxMike]

I have about 1650 on my KI 256 and it seems to be working OK.  I am wondering how much time you got out of yours.  

[StevenL757]

Flying back today from Dallas to NOLA at 9.5K with the AP in the NAV select mode when the aircraft banked right and slight nose down. I quickly disconnected the AP switch and recovered....No big deal. I can't say is was focusing on the AI....all was perfect from a tracking standpoint and I tend to scan more on the engine readings. After all settled down I reengaged the AP and the KFC 150 locked in again and all was well.....until... I noticed the AI starting to swing to the right and down. Long story short I'm pretty sure its ready for a rebuild.

My question is.... what is the best alternative based on this groups collective knowledge....

• Rebuild about 3K installed and calibrated
• New about 8K installed and calibrated
• Wait for the Electronic King..... Maybe available last quarter and 6K????
• Aspen twin pack for about 15K???

Money spent is always important..... I'm as frugal as any, but I tend to spend on the beneficial equipment with real advantages over older technology.

All opinions appreciated.

Thanks,

Rick

For the same price as the dual Aspens, a G500...if you have at least one GNS430W, 530W, GTN750, or GTN650 to drive it. Hands-down the most reliable arrangement.

[PTK]

Rick, if you can wait for the KI 300, it's a no brainer! It is exactly what's been missing.

The KI300 does not require a costly backup AI nor does it require those other external boxes to worry about. It provides its own autopilot outputs. It carries DO-178B criticality level B. (Aspen is only level C.)

This is huge! It will potentially enable removal of the vacuum system.

Going to an Aspen would be regressing.

[Jerry 5TJ]

I looked at the KI300 at OSH this year, it is a Great Leap Forward from the KI256. You save weight and add reliability: No spinning gyros, fast startup, self-monitoring of faults.

The G500 plus GAD43e upgrade would be fine but is five times more money.

[Seth]

Does the KI300, which looks fantastic as a nice upgrade for exactly this sort of event, have GPSS like the Aspen?  Something to consider.  Make sure to compare apples to apples when you put together your spreadsheet (with equipment trade in as well).

 

I don't know if you have GPSS already in your aircraft.  

 

If the price point is really not that much more for a single Aspen after considering the capability (HSI, synthetic vision, GPSS, etc) and all the trade ins you'll get, and panel work, then it may be worth it to go aspen.  For a plug and play with out changing anything else, the KI300 looks to be a very smart solution.

 

-Seth

[LANCECASPER]

I was a little skeptical of the Aspen but ended up buying a 2000 Ovation that has a dual Aspen in it. I was thinking it was a downgrade from a G500, but I am very impressed with it. It is a great set-up. Having flown with it for awhile now, I would do it again in a minute if I ever had an airplane that needed an AI or HSI replacement. They always seem to have some kind of special going on so they are very competitive. 

 

Simple to learn, easy way to get GPSS. The pervious owner had done a complete panel overhaul, so they are flush mount, which was nice, but not necessary with the Aspen since they plug into a standard instrument hole. The Skywatch and WX500 display nicely on them. The dual setup has redundancy and mine has battery backup. Since I have a backup electric AI with battery also I have no more vacuum pumps to replace. 

[KSMooniac]

Looks like retail for the KI300 with an autopilot output is going to be $6k.  If it were me, I'd rather spend the little bit extra to get an Aspen and electronic HSI + GPSS instead of just the attitude indicator.

[mike_elliott]

Rick, if you can wait for the KI 300, it's a no brainer! It is exactly what's been missing.

The KI300 does not require a costly backup AI nor does it require those other external boxes to worry about. It provides its own autopilot outputs. It carries DO-178B criticality level B. (Aspen is only level C.)

This is huge! It will potentially enable removal of the vacuum system.

Going to an Aspen would be regressing.

As someone with a few hours behind a G1000, a few behind a G500 and a few behind an Aspen, Peter, your opinion of an Aspen being regressing is at best erroneous.Perhaps your G500 is redundant, You do have one, don't you? 

 

Aspens only sin is that it is modeling itself after Garmin on the gouge lately (RE: AOA for 2K vs Garmins for, well, nothing 'cause it doesn't exist yet, and 2900 for SV vs 10000 vs Garmin G1000 SV)

Or you could save yourself about 6K and wait for the Ki300 and gain nothing other than getting it working again.

Suggest you look hard at the Aspen. By far the most bang for the buck, and if you want redundancy, a dual setup. If you like big tubes, a G500, but you will not have redundancy. Your plane's value will be increased either of these routes, and not by repairing or KI300

[Aerodon]

Rick,

 

I have a couple of KI256's for you to choose from,

 

Don

[aviatoreb]

How much is a single Aspen panel installed?  Say w/o the svt....although once I get that far...I would want svt.

 

I overhauled my KI256 last fall when it needed it - $2500 is a lot for an OH, but I was working under the assumption that an aspen would run me $12500 installed (I didn't get a quote - just guessed - so please fill in the real number).  So that's a factor of 5 different. I wasn't in the mood to spend that money or time or shopping nuisance at the time to go aspen, so I just did an overhaul exchange which is almost zero shop time, and a quick turn around.

[Marauder]

How much is a single Aspen panel installed? Say w/o the svt....although once I get that far...I would want svt.

I overhauled my KI256 last fall when it needed it - $2500 is a lot for an OH, but I was working under the assumption that an aspen would run me $12500 installed (I didn't get a quote - just guessed - so please fill in the real number). So that's a factor of 5 different. I wasn't in the mood to spend that money or time or shopping nuisance at the time to go aspen, so I just did an overhaul exchange which is almost zero shop time, and a quick turn around.

The current list price for the Pro version is $10,700. Street prices should be in the $9,500 range plus around $3k for installation. So, Mr. Professor, your mathematical skills are intact. I paid less since there was a rebate going on and I am a Cheap Bast&$d by nature -- but will spend the money if I see value.

And contrary to Peter, no longer Garmin, since I own more Garmin products than him, you need to look at the total package to make a cost versus benefit determination.

It is easy for people to dismiss things they don't have an understanding of. I looked long and hard at the G500/600 and the Aspens before moving forward with the Aspens. Redundancy is a BIG deal for me and the Aspens offer that. Price out the now approved battery backup for the G500 and you will see what I mean by cost versus benefit.

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[Marauder]

As someone with a few hours behind a G1000, a few behind a G500 and a few behind an Aspen, Peter, your opinion of an Aspen being regressing is at best erroneous.Perhaps your G500 is redundant, You do have one, don't you?

Aspens only sin is that it is modeling itself after Garmin on the gouge lately (RE: AOA for 2K vs Garmins for, well, nothing 'cause it doesn't exist yet, and 2900 for SV vs 10000 vs Garmin G1000 SV)

Or you could save yourself about 6K and wait for the Ki300 and gain nothing other than getting it working again.

Suggest you look hard at the Aspen. By far the most bang for the buck, and if you want redundancy, a dual setup. If you like big tubes, a G500, but you will not have redundancy. Your plane's value will be increased either of these routes, and not by repairing or KI300

Thanks for taking time to respond Mike. I am amazed (not really) that people dismiss things without understanding the true value you get. I am approaching 3 years with my Aspens and recently had a chance to fly a G500 equipped Piper. You can't go wrong going either way, but if you are concerned about value you receive, the Aspens do pack a lot in for the price.

I got to get Peter, formerly known as Peter Garmin, out in my Aspen equipped Mooney. Maybe seeing it first hand he will be known as Peter Aspen going forth...

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[LANCECASPER]

As someone with a few hours behind a G1000, a few behind a G500 and a few behind an Aspen, Peter, your opinion of an Aspen being regressing is at best erroneous.Perhaps your G500 is redundant, You do have one, don't you? 

 

Aspens only sin is that it is modeling itself after Garmin on the gouge lately (RE: AOA for 2K vs Garmins for, well, nothing 'cause it doesn't exist yet, and 2900 for SV vs 10000 vs Garmin G1000 SV)

Or you could save yourself about 6K and wait for the Ki300 and gain nothing other than getting it working again.

Suggest you look hard at the Aspen. By far the most bang for the buck, and if you want redundancy, a dual setup. If you like big tubes, a G500, but you will not have redundancy. Your plane's value will be increased either of these routes, and not by repairing or KI300

 

 

Aspen's new promotion offering the SV and the AOA together for $3295 has me thinking.

 

http://www.aspenavionics.com/news/aspen-introduces-evolution-pro-plus-safety-package/

[PTK]

You know what I'm amazed about? I'm amazed at how some folks just love to argue!

This is not an apples to apples comparison folks!

The KI 300 is what Aspen or G500 will never be. It's a purposefully built solid state AHRS AI that directly replaces, in this case, the KI 256. No external boxes and no backup steam gauges. None. And it can potentially enable the elimination of the entire vaccuum system. All for 6 grand!

In case you guys missed it in your frenzy, the op did say "...Money spent is always important..... I'm as frugal as any, but I tend to spend on the beneficial equipment with real advantages over older technology..."

Which Aspen or G500 can do that? Please show me.

It is an option that has been missing and BK should be applauded for bringing it to us.

It's called continuing to support their legendary autopilots with the latest and greatest technology that will outlast their equally legendary vaccuum attitude for decades to come!

Considering the immense capability of the KI 300, the Aspen pales in comparison. A regression indeed.

[KSMooniac]

Well, the Aspen & EA100 can replace the KI 256 AND the KI 525, KMT 112, KG102A, KA51, pounds of wires and still allow removal of the vacuum system.  That is a lot more than the KI300 offers.  Maybe King will will release a complementary e-HSI to replace the expensive swiss watch stuff later?  

[aviatoreb]

You know what I'm amazed about? I'm amazed at how some folks just love to argue!

This is not an apples to apples comparison folks!

The KI 300 is what Aspen or G500 will never be. It's a purposefully built solid state AHRS AI that directly replaces, in this case, the KI 256. No external boxes and no backup steam gauges. None. And it can potentially enable the elimination of the entire vaccuum system. All for 6 grand!

In case you guys missed it in your frenzy, the op did say "...Money spent is always important..... I'm as frugal as any, but I tend to spend on the beneficial equipment with real advantages over older technology..."

Which Aspen or G500 can do that? Please show me.

It is an option that has been missing and BK should be applauded for bringing it to us.

It's called continuing to support their legendary autopilots with the latest and greatest technology that will outlast their equally legendary vaccuum attitude for decades to come!

Considering the immense capability of the KI 300, the Aspen pales in comparison. A regression indeed.

 

I would have seriously considered the KI300 if it had been available last fall when I had to decide between overhaul my KI256 for 2.5k and no downtime or the next step up was Aspen for 12.5k and a lot of unscheduled downtime.

[mike_elliott]

You know what I'm amazed about? I'm amazed at how some folks just love to argue!

This is not an apples to apples comparison folks!

What the KI 300 is Aspen or G500 will never be. It's a purposefully built sold state AHRS AI that directly replaces, in this case, the KI 256. No external boxes and no backup steam gauges. None. And it can potentially enable the elimination of the entire vaccuum system. All for 6 grand!

In case you guys missed it in your frenzy, the op did say "...Money spent is always important..... I'm as frugal as any, but I tend to spend on the beneficial equipment with real advantages over older technology..."

Which Aspen or G500 can do that? Please show me.

 

 

Is that the purpose? to eliminate the vacuum system? You would rather just replace an AI only and for the low sum of 6 grand plus install instead of improving the plane for less 2x the cost, like having an all digital HSI (or you could plunk down another 5 or 6K for a sandell if that makes you happy), a gps, GPSS steering, ADHARS, backup VSI, backup altimeter, backup ASI, OAT, wind direction, and a glass cockpit plane that will easily be worth 6K more than if you just drop in a KI300 that doesn't exist yet.

I don't get it Peter King, but if that makes you happy, then that is what you should do to yours. No mess no fuss, no availability, no increased value.

Personally, having a vacuum backup isn't all that bad as a backup, for when the electrons on your Gil battery go west.

It is an option that has been missing and BK should be applauded for bringing it to us.

Agreed, but 6 AMU's....come on,,give us something to get excited about.

It's called continuing the support of their legendary autopilots with the latest and greatest technology that will outlast their equally legendary vaccuum attitude for decades to come!

 

Well, that certainly isn't hard to do, the whatthe KI256's bust. But 6K? come on King...

Considering the immense capability of the KI 300, the Aspen pales in comparison. A regression indeed.

Huh? did they have a marijuana burn in your neighborhood today?

 

[PTK]

...

I got to get Peter, formerly known as Peter Garmin, out in my Aspen equipped Mooney. Maybe seeing it first hand he will be known as Peter Aspen going forth...

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Thanks for the offer Chris. I'll fly with you any time.

I have flown a friend's Bonanza with an Aspen a few times.

[LANCECASPER]

I didn't realize that the King KI300 was certified yet and was even a choice.

 

Oh wait, it's not. King is the same company that took seven years and needed someone else's help to get the KSN770 certified.

 

Let's see who was it that finally finished it and got it certified . . . hmm?    Oh yeah it was Aspen that's right . . lol

[PTK]

Well, the Aspen & EA100 can replace the KI 256 AND the KI 525, KMT 112, KG102A, KA51, pounds of wires and still allow removal of the vacuum system. That is a lot more than the KI300 offers. Maybe King will will release a complementary e-HSI to replace the expensive swiss watch stuff later?

No it can't.

You need the 1000 pro + the EA100 + a backup AI. Grand total about 20K installed.

[mike_elliott]

I would have seriously considered the KI300 if it had been available last fall when I had to decide between overhaul my KI256 for 2.5k and no downtime or the next step up was Aspen for 12.5k and a lot of unscheduled downtime.

 

Downtime Is a consideration. I had one put in the Bravo last November for 12K, took 3 days, Avionics guy I selected did it at my hanger. Why did I do it? Because Sandel wanted 1700 to get a firmware update for their 3800 so it will do WAAS approaches. Sold the sandel for 3500, got rid of a LOT of weight, picked up a lot of extra capabilities like GPSS. Aspen threw in SV.  

Garmin G500 would have been over 20K installed, and down for at least a month.

All in,$8500 out of pocket, Increase in value of the plane in the area of $8500 I would suspect.

[donkaye]

It really is an apples vs oranges thing.  I've got tons of time behind the KI256, the Aspens (both single and dual tubes), the G1000, and most recently the G500 in my airplane (for the past year and a half).

 

I overhauled my KI256 3 times.  Each time it lasted a little over 1,000 hours.  It only failed the first time and I preemptively overhauled them the two additional times, since I do a lot of IFR flying.  In the end the KI 256 really never behaved properly after the overhauls, and maybe not even originally.  It was satisfactory not to kill someone, but ALWAYS in a left turn to final when rolling out level the AI was off at least 5° from level.  I never liked that.  On the cheap, the new KI 300 looked really good at Oshkosh.  I hope they get it certified soon for those who for cost or sentimental reasons want to operate with the legacy instrumentation.

 

The Aspen is "adequate" and really does a lot for a modest amount of money, but as the saying goes (well, maybe I'm making it up) it isn't a G500.  In my opinion the G500 is the Rolls Royce of the panel upgrades.  It is the most comfortable panel I have flown behind, including the G1000.  You do pay for that privilege, however.  With the new ESI 500 that will be out by November according to my contacts at L-3, a backup similar to the 2nd screen Aspen will be available for the G500 that includes navigation (both lateral and vertical), SVT, VS, independent heading, sync'd baro, and backup battery.  I plan to sell my ESI 2000 and put that unit in when it becomes available.  It'll be like having a mini G500 in the panel as a backup.

 

I've now made numerous trips all over the country with my system and the power of the new technology is just amazing. The Flight Stream 210 turned out to be a huge surprise as to its usefulness, even with a fully equipped airplane such as mine.