bdavis171 Posted July 29, 2015 Report Share Posted July 29, 2015 I've been reading through a few of the forums and have been researching a few different planes. I'm currently 6 minutes (yes 6 minutes of instrument time) away from meeting all my qualifications to take my practical exam. I'm looking mainly at Piper (Arrow) and Mooney (M20F or open to others). It appears to me that with Mooney you get more bang for your buck with a lower TTAF, SMOH, better instrument panel, interior and higher cruise speed than you would with a similarly priced Piper Arrow. What am I missing here? I've soloed in a 150, 172, and have a few hours in an Arrow so far. I'm not a fan of the high wing Cessna as they seem to be more prone to crosswinds, which is always an issue here in NW Missouri. I will probably travel 2-3 times a month on longer routes ranging from 150-500nm. I would like to move on to get IFR certification and like the idea of gaining time in a complex airplane. My budget is up to 60-70k. I'm looking into insurance quotes currently, I'm not sure if any of you guys have had an issue with that? I guess my main question, am I crazy to want to start out on a Mooney? If so, what would you suggest? What planes? Thanks in advance for the advice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted July 29, 2015 Report Share Posted July 29, 2015 Welcome aboard BD, A Mooney would be great for what you are describing. If you like fast and efficient X-country flying machines, go Mooney! Best regards, -a- 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N33GG Posted July 29, 2015 Report Share Posted July 29, 2015 Nope, not crazy at all. You will have no problem mastering a Mooney if that is what you choose to do. The choice, IMHO, should be mission driven. Again, IMHO, nothing wrong with Mooneys, and nothing wring with Pipers. They are just different aircraft. Mooneys can be quirky and more demanding with maintenance. You will need a mechanic that is Mooney savvy. Any mechanic can work on an Arrow. Good luck with your first aircraft! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eman1200 Posted July 29, 2015 Report Share Posted July 29, 2015 I like the arrow as well, really easy plane to fly, a bit faster than a Cherokee/archer. I'm kind of shocked at the asking prices of them, quite honestly. Of course I like the mooneys, and for the same money I'd take mooney over arrow for my mission. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted July 29, 2015 Report Share Posted July 29, 2015 Congratulations on your upcoming Ride, and Welcome! Many of us here started with Mooneys. I bought my C with 62 hours in my logbook, all in Skyhawks. Insurance the first year was difficult to find and expensive, but it comes right down if you get quality training. Discuss training and CFI/CFII options with your agent; I used their suggested CFII and only needed 15 dual including 5 actual/simulated IMC. Other wanted up to 25 dual then 10 solo before I could take anyone else in the plane. Search these forums, there are many threads about this very topic. Join MAPA and attend a PPP to really learn now to fly your Mooney the right way. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loogie Posted July 29, 2015 Report Share Posted July 29, 2015 I've been reading through a few of the forums and have been researching a few different planes. I'm currently 6 minutes (yes 6 minutes of instrument time) away from meeting all my qualifications to take my practical exam. I'm looking mainly at Piper (Arrow) and Mooney (M20F or open to others). It appears to me that with Mooney you get more bang for your buck with a lower TTAF, SMOH, better instrument panel, interior and higher cruise speed than you would with a similarly priced Piper Arrow. What am I missing here? I've soloed in a 150, 172, and have a few hours in an Arrow so far. I'm not a fan of the high wing Cessna as they seem to be more prone to crosswinds, which is always an issue here in NW Missouri. I will probably travel 2-3 times a month on longer routes ranging from 150-500nm. I would like to move on to get IFR certification and like the idea of gaining time in a complex airplane. My budget is up to 60-70k. I'm looking into insurance quotes currently, I'm not sure if any of you guys have had an issue with that? I guess my main question, am I crazy to want to start out on a Mooney? If so, what would you suggest? What planes? Thanks in advance for the advice! That 172 will handle a x-w way better than a Mooney, it is also very flexible in terms of grass, dirt etc. That plane can help you build airmanship; granted they are not sexy, but there is a reason there are thousands of them around. Great airplane to build your bag of experience. However a Mooney is good looking, faster; but requires some more demanding aviation skills. As long as there is good training involved a Mooney would not be a problem. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff_S Posted July 29, 2015 Report Share Posted July 29, 2015 Everyone's route is different and no one way is right for all. Just to give you my experience, my first plane was a Piper Warrior II, which was a fine aircraft for tooling around, making even some long cross countries (from Atlanta to Denver, OSH, Connecticut and all points between) with reasonable speed and efficiency. It's also what I used to get my IFR rating. For me, I wanted a plane that was simpler to operate so I could get more comfortable flying in the system and learning the Big Picture of private aviation. But after three years I then wanted a better traveling machine, and Mooney was always my top choice there because of the speed/efficiency/styling combination (as the new marketing says, Choose Any Three!). As has been noted, you can learn to fly any plane as long as you put the patience and practice into it and have good instruction. I will say, though, that Mooneys do require more diligence and expertise, especially in the landing phase, then most other airplanes; but once you get the hang of that, they are a joy to fly. Good luck with your decision. You're at one of the most fun stages, where you can experiment and strategize and think about what you want. Test flying a lot of planes will be a blast, and give you the info you need to make a decision. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted July 29, 2015 Report Share Posted July 29, 2015 I transitioned into our 20F at about 190hrs. IIRC the insurance company wanted 15 in type and 200TT to carry passengers. Rates have been pretty stagnant since the second year. 1st year was $1500 (2004) next year was $1100 and it has been between $950 and $1050 ever since ($55K Hull). Mooney's are excellent XC machines and they're just fine off of grass and shorter fields as long as you know what you're doing. They are not particularly forgiving to someone who is behind the airplane. There is no better ride for extracting the most utility out of a gallon of gas. The 20F is a great choice. Reasonably fast, reasonably priced and a much better load hauler than most would believe. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M20F Posted July 29, 2015 Report Share Posted July 29, 2015 Vintage Mooney's are going to be faster and generally have more useful load than a similiar year Arrow. The Arrow has a bigger cabin. Otherwise not a lot of difference. From a dollar stand point you tend to see better prices on Mooney's than Arrows. Given the choice I would choose a Mooney obviously 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyNameIsNobody Posted July 29, 2015 Report Share Posted July 29, 2015 I trained, got my complex cert in an Arrow. The F is a better plane for reasons given plus the strength and safety of the spar and roll cage. I do find them easier to fly and handle on the ground (Cross wind) than a Cessna. Agree that if soft/grass fields are your norm a Mooney might not be best choice. For cross country...hands down over an Arrow. The speed/time of flight savings over the Arrow I had flown made me laugh back in the day. Have fun with your search... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted July 29, 2015 Report Share Posted July 29, 2015 I trained, got my complex cert in an Arrow. The F is a better plane for reasons given plus the strength and safety of the spar and roll cage. I do find them easier to fly and handle on the ground (Cross wind) than a Cessna. Agree that if soft/grass fields are your norm a Mooney might not be best choice. For cross country...hands down over an Arrow. The speed/time of flight savings over the Arrow I had flown made me laugh back in the day. Have fun with your search... On this rare occasion I'm going to agree with Scott ;-) I have found my M20C much easier to fly, land, handle, etc. than any Cessna. It is my first airplane and I couldn't be happier with the decision. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M20F Posted July 29, 2015 Report Share Posted July 29, 2015 For cross country...hands down over an Arrow. The speed/time of flight savings over the Arrow I had flown made me laugh back in the day. Have fun with your search... There is only about 10kts at best difference between the two which on 600nm trip is going to be about a 20 min difference. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyNameIsNobody Posted July 29, 2015 Report Share Posted July 29, 2015 On this rare occasion I'm going to agree with Scott ;-) I have found my M20C much easier to fly, land, handle, etc. than any Cessna. It is my first airplane and I couldn't be happier with the decision. Don't you have barbecues to close down? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted July 29, 2015 Report Share Posted July 29, 2015 The Arrow has a bigger cabin. Do post those dimensions. I will concede that the piper has a whooping .25" more of head room. Other than that, I think you're mistaken. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DXB Posted July 29, 2015 Report Share Posted July 29, 2015 You are in a similar situation to mine 7 months ago- just about to finish my PPL, shopping for an Archer or Arrow as my first plane, wondering if a Mooney is a much better value. I got an M20C and am so glad I did NOT get the Piper. It is a much better value. There is really no catch here. You need a mechanic who really knows the less ubiquitous Mooneys for some issues, but not for many routine things. Minimal difference in my insurance quotes - a couple hundred bucks. Get a PPI from a real Mooney expert, then take time to find someone who knows the plane well for your transition training. They are different from Pipers and Cessnas but very rewarding and certainly not hard to fly. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madjano Posted July 29, 2015 Report Share Posted July 29, 2015 Just closed on my M20E... 75 hours - 1hr Rectract time (not checked out in complex at the time of quote), Time in 152, 172SP, and 182, Beech B35 and Cherokee 160. Kimmel Aviation Insurance $1,600 - 5hr Dual / 5 hour solo. Will have dual done this weekend. No magic to landing a Mooney, just keep correct airspeed on final and more of a "transition to level flight" than a flare. I doubt the short tail can take on the Cx winds with same comfort level I have with 172, but will start searching it out this weekend. I'm lucky I found a CFI who is also a mechanic with vintage Mooney experience. Finding an affordable mechanic with Mooney experience would be my only deal breaker. You won't find a faster, more efficient, cheaper to maintain aircraft as long as you put in due diligence in finding a good "bones" aircraft and not paying for a mechanic to get schooled in the process. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted July 29, 2015 Report Share Posted July 29, 2015 Just closed on my M20E... 75 hours - 1hr Rectract time (not checked out in complex at the time of quote), Time in 152, 172SP, and 182, Beech B35 and Cherokee 160. Kimmel Aviation Insurance $1,600 - 5hr Dual / 5 hour solo. Will have dual done this weekend. No magic to landing a Mooney, just keep correct airspeed on final and more of a "transition to level flight" than a flare. I doubt the short tail can take on the Cx winds with same comfort level I have with 172, but will start searching it out this weekend. I'm lucky I found a CFI who is also a mechanic with vintage Mooney experience. Finding an affordable mechanic with Mooney experience would be my only deal breaker. You won't find a faster, more efficient, cheaper to maintain aircraft as long as you put in due diligence in finding a good "bones" aircraft and not paying for a mechanic to get schooled in the process. Try pulling back right after the wheels chirp. if the mains lift off, then you are flying it on... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdavis171 Posted July 29, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 29, 2015 Awesome feedback guys. My mechanic/instructor annuals a few of these a year, so probably not the top of the line guy to go to, but very affordable and very fair. I'm waiting to hear back about insurance as my quotes went to underwriting. Hopefully they can work something out. I have no problems putting in the additional hours with my instructor for insurance and more importantly safety reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisk Posted July 29, 2015 Report Share Posted July 29, 2015 I bought an older(1965) 145 hp 172 as my first plane. In less than a year I sold it and started looking for a Mooney. In general I find the Mooney far easier to fly. Cross winds that would have had me sweating in the 172 are simple in the Mooney. And the Mooney climbs far better. The 172 had some advantages. It was far cheaper to own. Insurance was half, it was on tie down ($25 per month), and annuals were around $600. It also used less runway on take off and landing. --The old 172 however was not a good cross country machine. It was altitude challenged and slow. The manual said the service ceiling was 13,100 feet, but that is density altitude, and on 100 degree summer days, it wasn't getting anywhere close to that. Periodically I still look at flight aware and see where it's flying. I never see it above 6000 feet and cruise is typically 95 to 100 kts. Anyway, a Mooney is not an unreasonable plane after you get your private pilots license. You will need some additional training. What does that blue knob do? What are cowl flaps? How do you put the gear up and down? And what happens if the gear doesn't go down? You will need to learn to plan your descents, to control your speed on final, and not force the plane onto the runway. --None of this is a big deal. It's just a few hours of training. And you will need much of this training even if you move into something like a 182. As far as what other planes to look at. I'd look a Comanche 260 if you can find a well kept one. A Cessna 182 is also a good choice. Also, a Cherokee 235, if you don't mind the fuel bill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbs007 Posted July 29, 2015 Report Share Posted July 29, 2015 A few quotes I've heard along the way: On what plane to buy: "Cessnas and Pipers are what people buy to rent out. Mooneys and Bonanzas are what people buy for themselves." On economical cruise settings (but can be applied to aircraft purchase): "I didn't buy a plane to fly slow." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted July 29, 2015 Report Share Posted July 29, 2015 My short-body Mooney handles crosswinds very well. On my Instrument checkride, using Runway 23, winds were gusting into the mid-teen and 250V140. The highest I've had so far has been at KRAP, 50º left of the runway at something like 15G25, a year after I bought the plane. Not a problem at all. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M20F Posted July 29, 2015 Report Share Posted July 29, 2015 Do post those dimensions. I will concede that the piper has a whooping .25" more of head room. Other than that, I think you're mistaken. "Although Mooney claims a cabin width of 43.5 inches for the MSE, this measurement is taken at the elbow-level cutouts; and even if the numbers are similar to other single-engine retracts, the Mooney interior has never been one to inspire thoughts of the great outdoors" ---- source http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All-News/1996/September/1/Mooney-MSE I love my F and I have probably 200hrs in various Arrows over the years. Anyone who advocates a Mooney cabin is spacious is drinking too much Kool Aid. While they are the ultimate combo of value, speed, fuel burn, useful load, etc. they have some trade offs. Cabin comfort is certainly one of them and they wouldn't be my choice for a lot of unimproved airstrips. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yetti Posted July 30, 2015 Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 It's not app1es to app1es I can not f1y a piper or baron but fit nice1y in a Mooney and I am 6'9" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy95W Posted July 30, 2015 Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 Anyone who advocates a Mooney cabin is spacious is drinking too much Kool Aid. Not spacious? I think this advertisement from 1962 shows otherwise. Look at all that room in the back seat! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted July 30, 2015 Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 Not spacious? I think this advertisement from 1962 shows otherwise. Look at all that room in the back seat! It's amazing how many ways a Barbie doll can be posed. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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