Airplane buying rant. May contain abbreviated profanity

[davidsguerra]

Been grounded ever since the crash last September. I've dying to get back in the air. I've looked at 4 planes and done 3 prebuys. Every time I got the same song and dance. The plane is perfect condition and you're stealing it from me. So far I've met 3 MF liars.

Plane 1 forgot to mention the gear up. Prebuy finds a cracked cylinder. 3 pages of other squaks. Passed on that one

Plane 2 2 bad cylinders leaking wings inop avionics. O2 bottle about to expire. Didnt want to budge in price. You can keep that POS A$$hole

Plane 3 encore rocket cherry condition only 200 hrs. Talked him into a reasonable price. He tells me if there is something wrong with it he would be shocked. Then I got a prebuy. 2 bad cylinders one BC with compressions in the 20s. Not sure why I'm surprised the dip$hit told me he was keeping the TIT at 1650. Didn't want to budge in price. Tells me he can replace the cylinders for 1200$ each. Try 2000$ plus labor numbnuts and it won't be long before it needs a topend overhaul. Oh yeah and the fuel injectors are leaking. Acts like I'm insulting him and my mechanic must be trying to take me for a ride. Plans to sell it at osh kosh for his asking price. Good luck with that @$$hole.

May you hit a pothole parking it.

Is there no honesty anymore?

/ rant off

I guess I'm being too picky. Go ahead flame away. FML I just want my rocket back . tired of paying for prebuys to find your lemons

[kmyfm20s]

I was just reading about an interesting rocket in this months Mapa Log classifieds you should look it up.

[Cruiser]

Sorry you are picking losers....... three in a row, the next one should be a winner!

[Jerry 5TJ]

Have you considered a new Mooney with a factory warranty?

Yeah, it costs the better part of 3/4 million dollars going that route.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Joe Zuffoletto]

Be picky, be persistent, and be patient. I know it sucks to have been ground bound for almost a year but don't let that color your thinking (I don't think you have). Your next perfect Mooney is out there somewhere. Keep mining the ore; there's a nugget out there somewhere.

 

If you think buying certified planes is bad, try homebuilts! I decided 4 years ago I wanted a Vans RV-8. I looked at 23 frogs before I finally found my princess 2 years ago. It was worth the wait. Hang in there.

[ryoder]

I can guarantee there as many a-hole buyers as sellers out there.

[DXB]

Sorry- this sounds painful...

[davidsguerra]

I guess what really gets me is the attitude when i tell them im going to have to put money into it just to make it AIRWORTHY never mind the panel work im going to have get to have radios made in this century and adsB compliant. Then they dont want to negotiate price.

[peevee]

I like to think the owners just don't know about the issues coming out in the prebuy, but you never know. 

[Tommy]

It's a testament of how good Mooneys are! Most of the honest owners will only part their well looked after bird when they stop flying and most of the time that's due to medicals. Sellers that tell you that they are "upgrading" is lying 90% of the time. Upgrade to what? And sellers that tell you that they need the money...well...need I say more? So my first question is always "why do you want to sell your Mooney?"

 

And before you even consider buying that airline ticket and hire a mechanic to pre-buy that bird, why not get a faxed /scanned copy of all the log books + the reports from anyone else's pre-buys or the annual + lots of photos. I think by doing this you can safely avoid wasting time and money on at least 70% of the lemons.

 

Lastly, the beauty is in the eye of the beholder and you might be right saying that you are a little picky for the price range?

 

ps. what happened to your rocket?

[Guest]

We do many PPI's, two this week alone, one passed the other did not. Many owners are well aware of the poor state of maintenance on their airplanes and are in a state of denial.

Clarence

[davidsguerra]

I lost my Rocket when I manifold pressure at 17k feet. It blew a valve and lost oil. Rolled of the runway on an emergency landing

I am a reasonable guy. I look at other planes on the market and try to ascertain a value. It really gets me they dont want to talk turkey when there are airworthiness issues.

[BigTex]

Your seeing the power of the PPI... Painful as it seems, the process is actually working for you.  One thing I did was to write into the contract that any items that were found to be Airworthiness issues was repaired at the owners expense.  If he chooses not to repair those items, he's to pay for the PPI as well as return all earnest money.  That clause worked in my favor to the tune of $4K.

[Aerodon]

I got crooked with a Turbo Arrow IV 30 years ago.  Seller said 550 SMOH, turned out it was 550 STOH.  But best school fees ever, never had a problem since.  But s few basic rules:

 

1) never buy a plane without original paint - then its real hard to hide damage etc.  If the plane still looks good after 20/30/40 years then the rest of it follows suit.

2) buy a plane with a nice new engine, or a tired old engine and budget accordingly

3) be ruthless, know the book value, know how to adjust for TT and engine time and be prepared to pay for it.  Same with avionics etc.  Add up what you want to install too.

 

My direct experience several times over:  a low TT airplane with good engine / propeller / avionics is likely to pencil out 25% more than average, but the seller will probably end up accepting 15% more than average.  Nice deal for buyer, and over time, sometimes a very short time, you will get your moneys worth.  The converse applies - a plane with tired paint, avionics engine etc could be worth 30% less than average, but try get a seller to see that.  Impossible.

 

Don

[carusoam]

It takes a lot of heart to buy a plane from anyone.

1)The pre-owned plane has unknowns.

2)The seller has unknowns.

3)The buyer may have unknowns.

The coolest part of buying a replacement plane...

You already know the mission

You already know the plane that fills the mission and everything about what it takes to be an owner...

You are trying to take out the last hurdle... Wacky sellers.

Most non-professional machine sellers are going to have a piece of wackiness imbedded in them.

The following is my usual support my favorite vendor, because it worked for me, routine...

Pay extra to remove the wacky seller from the plane...

I used AAA. (Professional wackiness removers)

Photos and logs are made available quickly. Descriptions are standardized and match what you see when you get there.

Sometimes it is good to know the seller.

In reality, the seller may not be that helpful...

See if it makes sense to remove the current owner from the equation. You are going to use a PPI to protect your wallet still...

Best regards,

-a-

http://allamericanaircraft.com/Default.htm

+ DMax for PPI

If I need to be a seller, I have already exposed the extent of my wackiness here...

[Rhumbline]

Planes, boats, cars & horses... and everything else for that matter.  Been going on for time and memoriam.

[Tom]

The common-standard expectation is that the seller offering a flight-ready plane at minimum will be selling an airworthy plane at the asking/agreed upon price, meaning that the plane would pass an annual on the day of sale (that might require a small bushing here or an adjustment there).  Airworthy means airworthy, not squawk-free.  It sounds as though you as a buyer are not being given even standard consideration and courtesy.  I'd paint the sellers as naive.

 

I would offer a somewhat offensive opinion that owners of more expensive/high-end planes are frequently (not always) more out of touch when it comes to the airworthiness and squawk status of their birds.  I generalize that many such owners came into aviation "on the high end" whereas those of us who grew up with and live in a world of older airframes tend to be more in tune with the status of the myriad of issues that require constant attention.

[Danb]

Anthony I'd have to agree +1 Dmax

Picked up my plane from annual today, I'm in Memphis turning the journey home into a neat vacation. Regardless he is one of the most honest, knowledgeable MSC mech. I've ever met, plus he is very reasonable in his cost.

The 1200 miles very much worth it Also he gave Weber kudos for the fine shape my plane was in, I just wanted a new set of eyes on him.

Don is leaving for oshkosknto work the mapa tent for anyone who wants to look him up. After 30 yrs of mooney ownership I've become impressed.

Long winded reason for using him for prebuy..he's very meticulous

[HRM]

After the purchase the profanity will hardly be abbreviated 

[HRM]

Planes, boats, cars & horses... and everything else for that matter.  Been going on for time and memoriam.

 

Reminds me of the saying "Never own anything that eats while you sleep."

 

My E is gobbling down hangar rent monthly regardless of whether or not I fly her.

 

When I do fly her, she gets real hungry.

 

Annually she demands a special feast.

[mike_elliott]

Anthony I'd have to agree +1 Dmax

Picked up my plane from annual today, I'm in Memphis turning the journey home into a neat vacation. Regardless he is one of the most honest, knowledgeable MSC mech. I've ever met, plus he is very reasonable in his cost.

The 1200 miles very much worth it Also he gave Weber kudos for the fine shape my plane was in, I just wanted a new set of eyes on him.

Don is leaving for oshkosknto work the mapa tent for anyone who wants to look him up. After 30 yrs of mooney ownership I've become impressed.

Long winded reason for using him for prebuy..he's very meticulous

David used Don for one of the prebuy's, I saw the toad he was thinking of last Dec. when I was there for annual. Yea, an improper skin replacement was "overlooked" in the sellers description. Didn't do the Seller or David any good, just gave Don enough income to buy me lunch. David, I do know of a cherry Acclaim S for sale

[HRM]

Another option is to do what I did...

 

I found a plane that was love at first sight.

 

Came to find out that Don Maxwell had done annuals on her for a decade.

 

A call and chat with Don and I bought the plane.

 

She was flawless, still is.

 

I don't want to speak for Don, but he may know of an owner who wants to sell a plane he has been servicing. Not unusual for a shop to also "casually" broker a plane. 

 

I would steer clear of an aircraft that had not had annuals at the same shop, and only a Mooney shop (not necessarily an MSC, but an MSC is preferred). 

[mike_elliott]

 

 

I would steer clear of an aircraft that had not had annuals at the same shop, and only a Mooney shop (not necessarily an MSC, but an MSC is preferred). 

 

I wouldn't. Sometimes a new set of eyes is exactly what a plane needs.

[HRM]

I wouldn't. Sometimes a new set of eyes is exactly what a plane needs.

 

I am talking about an established baseline.

 

Planes that flit from A&P to A&P never develop a meaningful relationship.

 

Of course, the key is the A&P--a meaningful relationship with a deadbeat is rarely productive.

[Ned Gravel]

My purchase in 2004/5 caused 8 aircraft to be considered and 5 of them had pre-buys.  One mechanic from Charlotte, NC wrote me back:  "She's been rode hard and put away wet."  The guy from Mizou Aviation identified rust on one of the longerons (part of the steel cage).  The mechanic from Baton Rouge told me about their evidence of a gear up not properly fixed.  The one at Rockcliffe did not go farther than the examination of the logs (two propstrikes in the previous five years - only the first of which was handled properly.  Cavalier Aviation did one from Edmonton and that one showed an a/c without the upgraded ailerons and aileron links.  

 

Clarence did the last one.  A hockey sock full of airworthiness issues that the seller did not believe.  He came to the hanger and Clarence showed him physically.  He finally agreed and modified his price for the cost of those repairs.  Today, he uses Clarence for his Bravo.  

 

Total cost of pre-buy's (minus the one Clarence did that included a part 2) was $2000.00 for the first four.  Those four Mooney's came off the market when those pre-buys were done.  Each $500.00 spent saved me $50,000 in heartache.  Worth the effort.  I never met any of the mechanics, except through reputation (not all were MSCs) and I never saw any of the aircraft, except the first and the last ones.  

 

Here is what I learned from the process that took approximately 9 months.

• Take nothing personally.  
• Keep the ball in the seller's court.  
• Negotiation is about finding a solution that both are happy with.  If that is not going to happen, at least make sure your own needs are met.
• Always be prepared to walk away.  
• Always do the doc examination and open her up with a pre-buy (using a mechanic you can trust).

Just my 0.02.