Why is an annual so expensive (NorCal)?

[peevee]

I had a similar experience, I think mine was 8K and they made some issues worse (like the egt and cht temps weren't properly grounded).

another pilot and cfi with a lot of mooney time told me this particular shop said send him a mooney fresh from the factory in tx and he'd find problems with it. Kind of tells me where he's at.

[frcabot]

another pilot and cfi with a lot of mooney time told me this particular shop said send him a mooney fresh from the factory in tx and he'd find problems with it. Kind of tells me where he's at.

Ugh. Which one?

[peevee]

Ugh. Which one?

since I didn't hear it first hand I'd rather not say. (wasn't in CA, just tagging along)

[M20F]

An annual is a signature in a book, there are guys who will pencil whip one for $200-500. The advantage at a reputed MSC is that you are going to get a bundle of services that are clearly defined by an expert on Mooney's with that signature. In addition a reputed MSC is going to have a track record of not over charging and communicating any expenses outside of the base price prior to doing that work.

All annuals are the same (a signature to be legal) but what comes with that signature and at what price is very different. It amazes me with resources like this forum and other internet sources how many people end up with bad experiences.

[Immelman]

LASAR/Top Gun are outstanding resources. We are lucky to have them! Especially for parts & expertise.

 

However they are not the only choice for a good annual. They are not the only folks who know Mooneys well.

 

You need to self-assess and decide: What is your time worth? Are you mechanically inclined? Would you enjoy being hands on to reduce the cost? There are no right or wrong answers to these questions, but depending on the answers, you can certainly knock the price down significantly. Much of the labor involved with an annual is grunt work: Open airplane, close airplane, lubricate umpteen zerks & rod-ends, service spark plugs, service wheel bearings... These tasks are time consuming and do not require the expertise that an MSC offers. I myself am mechnically inclined, am cost conscious, and am inclined to do as much as I can myself, hiring out the expertise for inspection time and repairs that are beyond my skill-set. Then, use the experts for the specific parts or servicing required. Here is the key: to be successful in this front you must cultivate a solid relationship with a competent A&P/IA.

 

On the other hand this approach is not everyone, and you will get great service handing the keys over to the experts end-to-end... but that convenience comes at a price.

[Shadrach]

the last MSC that touched our plane charged 15k for an annual, that wasn't for anything major.

half the things they touched aren't fixed still.

Not all MSCs are created equal. Some folks put a lot of faith in that designation, I don't. We had one on my field that I had mixed feelings about. Great parts department, not so great service dept.

[Shadrach]

In all fairness, it is really not fair to compare a Mooney to a Cessna 172. Fixed gear vs. retract and fixed prop vs. constant speed alone make a significant difference in maintenance and inspections required at annual. Also, the 172 type aircraft or Piper Cherokees for example, are much easier to access everything for inspection etc.

Just not a fair comparison... just for the record.

Significant? Depends on the Mooney. A normally aspirated 4 banger with manual gear should only add a few hours to an inspection over a 172. It takes all of ten minutes to check the gear preloads once the plane is jacked (I put together a power point presentation for a fellow mooney spacer if you want it). Lubricating a hartzel prop might take an hour and 85% of the work is R&Ring the spinner, many A&Ps are dubious about the benefits as am I. One thing is for sure, if you "over service" the hub with grease you'll herniate the seals and create a mess. That is one way to make an annual significantly more expensive than a 172.

The reality is, Mooneys have more inspection panels to remove than just about any other plane of comparable size. You can blow through nearly 4 hours of shop time just in R&R of panels. That's $300-$400 just to open things up.

[N601RX]

Consider this scenario with a vintage manual gear Mooney with no recurrent ad's except the gear lube/preload AD. The annual is done in the owners hanger using all the necessary Mooney specific tools, manuals and mooney checklist furnished by the owner. The IA has been doing this plane for several years and already has all the AD compliance information stored in his AD software. He arrives in his truck bringing himself and his knowledge. The owner already has all panels removed, Oil drained, filter removed and cut open, plugs removed, filters changed and muffler heat muff lowered . Airplane has been cleaned and is on jacks, the lubing of airframe and prop has been done, wheel bearings repacked and the tools for checking the gear rigging, timing and bore-scope set out ready to use. How long does the actual inspection take in this scenario? A cheap annual doesn't necessarily mean you are getting a paper annual, it just means means you have done everything possible yourself and minimized the time it takes your IA to do what he is required to do.

[Shadrach]

^^^^^ this is a very real example of how my annuals go every year.

[Mooneymite]

^^^^^^ Mine are similar, but I've put more than 24 hours into the annual before the IA even arrives.  I'd be happy if I could get my annual done in 3-8 hour days!

[cliffy]

For your first annual with your IA who has never seen this airplane, an airplane that could be close

to 50 years old with numerous owners who may or may not have done excellent maint and you don't have

a good clear AD listing and equipment list-just think of the hours of research he has to do in your

log books in addition to looking at the airplane.

Now think of all the lubing, greasing, cleaning, adjusting that needs to be done or checked and you

haven't even gotten to the squawk list yet.

It's possible to get an "Inspection only" done for cheap but the annual ain't done until all the other stuff

is done.

Remember also that the IA is signing his life away and certifying that the airplane meets its Type Certificate

in every respect and that means down to each and every required placard in detail, if he does it right.

And who is always named in any accident legal proceedings? The Mechanic.

Also remember that just like pilots and doctors, some mechanic graduated at the top of his class and someone

ALWAYS graduated at the bottom of the class. They all hold the same license.

[MyNameIsNobody]

Consider this scenario with a vintage manual gear Mooney with no recurrent ad's except the gear lube/preload AD. The annual is done in the owners hanger using all the necessary Mooney specific tools, manuals and mooney checklist furnished by the owner. The IA has been doing this plane for several years and already has all the AD compliance information stored in his AD software. He arrives in his truck bringing himself and his knowledge. The owner already has all panels removed, Oil drained, filter removed and cut open, plugs removed, filters changed and muffler heat muff lowered . Airplane has been cleaned and is on jacks, the lubing of airframe and prop has been done, wheel bearings repacked and the tools for checking the gear rigging, timing and bore-scope set out ready to use. How long does the actual inspection take in this scenario? A cheap annual doesn't necessarily mean you are getting a paper annual, it just means means you have done everything possible yourself and minimized the time it takes your IA to do what he is required to do.

I am in total agreement with this post. There is a lot of Mooney Service Center Love here. Good for you all. Have at it. I will continue to have my plane serviced, as it has been for 13 years with my A&P Brian. He also works on Corporate aircraft, Warbirds, Cessna's Pipers, Beeches etc. etc...He has installed my Voltage Regulator, My Engine Monitor, My engine and prop and accessories after overhaul, my one piece belly etc. etc. He knows my plane inside and out and so do I. He installed my nosegear brass Laser insert and shimmed it last year. He does corrosion X every other year. A vintage Mooney for a "flat fee" is B.S. I change my own oil prior to annual. He supervised our interior re-do and provided a hanger to complete the task. We have a decade-long relationship. He tells it like it is and does quality work on time, everytime. I let a pro, Brittain do my altitude hold install and tank reseal. Brian did the Accu-Trak and Accu-Flite install. I trust him with my life...but verify/question, negotiate...and communicate.

[donkaye]

Consider this scenario with a vintage manual gear Mooney with no recurrent ad's except the gear lube/preload AD. The annual is done in the owners hanger using all the necessary Mooney specific tools, manuals and mooney checklist furnished by the owner. The IA has been doing this plane for several years and already has all the AD compliance information stored in his AD software. He arrives in his truck bringing himself and his knowledge. The owner already has all panels removed, Oil drained, filter removed and cut open, plugs removed, filters changed and muffler heat muff lowered . Airplane has been cleaned and is on jacks, the lubing of airframe and prop has been done, wheel bearings repacked and the tools for checking the gear rigging, timing and bore-scope set out ready to use. How long does the actual inspection take in this scenario? A cheap annual doesn't necessarily mean you are getting a paper annual, it just means means you have done everything possible yourself and minimized the time it takes your IA to do what he is required to do.

 

After reading the above and before reading the above, I have one comment.  I'll take a Mooney Service Center like Top Gun any day, thank you.  I fly airplanes, don't have the slightest interest in working on them.  I leave that to the pros--Mooney pros.  If I wanted to do that type of work I'd have gotten an A&P license.

[Hank]

After reading the above and before reading the above, I have one comment.  I'll take a Mooney Service Center like Top Gun any day, thank you.  I fly airplanes, don't have the slightest interest in working on them.  I leave that to the pros--Mooney pros.  If I wanted to do that type of work I'd have gotten an A&P license.

Don, that's actually on his To Do list, from what I understand. Maybe I'll be able to get him to work on my plane then.

I believe that learning how the plane is put together and works makes me more comfortable in the plane,and makes it possible for me to become a better pilot. Staying involved in the maintenance lets me keep up with the condition of the plane, and know when something should be addressed, which is a function of the condition of the plane and my upcoming use of it. Crossing the middle of the Appalachians is somewhat more risky than going one county over for lunch, and condition of some things becomes more important.

Or maybe it's just another expression of the engineer in me, as it certainly isn't hidden.

[Guest]

I started typing a long reply to this thread but just deleted it all. Some people understand that good service costs real money. If you need a doctor you want the best one, but not so when it comes to airplane maintenance. Many posters are happy to search out the absolute lowest price no matter what. My departed mother always told me "water seeks its own level" she was right.

I believe I provide great service at fair prices, my shop rate is $85.00 CDN ($65.00US)/ hour I'd love to raise it but it's hard to compete against free lancers who charge half that, then have their customers call me to price check before buying their parts elsewhere.

Clarence

[Shadrach]

After reading the above and before reading the above, I have one comment. I'll take a Mooney Service Center like Top Gun any day, thank you. I fly airplanes, don't have the slightest interest in working on them. I leave that to the pros--Mooney pros. If I wanted to do that type of work I'd have gotten an A&P license.

I understand. The thing is Don, you don't know what you don't know. Our aircraft log has been tattooed with several MSCs over the years. The most interesting thing I found when I started participating in my own MX was some of the half assed stuff that had been done before or stuff that should have been done that was not. Nothing immediately dangerous, but not what I'd expect from the "Pros". Lest anyone think I'm a cheapskate, I've had several annuals that ended with squawks that topped 5 figures.

How does one know they are getting good airplane maintenance if they don't know anything about maintaining airplanes?

The first time a participated in an annual was about 10 years ago. I crawled under the panel to replace vacuum filters. They ones I removed were from the 80s. The vacuum tubing was original. It was not leaking, but the outer layer was all dry rot...if you stretched it, the cracks would open up like Swiss cheese; only a small amount of the tubing thickness had any integrity. How do you think that made me feel about the previous year's inspection (insp + squawks = $7,700). There are real pros out there for sure, but even they have to fire lousy employees sometimes. When it's me and my IA doing the work, I know what's being done or not done. Both I and my mechanic have performed tasks that I didn't think we're as good as they could've been. The difference is that we redid them. Some guys would button it up and push it out the door before the boss could see it.

It's not always about money, sometimes it's about knowing your equipment.

[Shadrach]

Don, that's actually on his To Do list, from what I understand. Maybe I'll be able to get him to work on my plane then.

I believe that learning how the plane is put together and works makes me more comfortable in the plane,and makes it possible for me to become a better pilot.

It likely also makes you a better trouble shooter in the air and on the ground.

[Immelman]

I agree that knowing your equipment makes things better overall... a better command of the machine, and better judgement in terms of go-no/go decision-making. Lets face it, the regs are black and white, but to depart or not is 50 shades of aviation gray. But I believe there are no absolutes in this area. It takes time, interest, and some degree of mechanical aptitude to be a hands-on owner and if someone is not, that's OK.

 

I am glad to know my plane to the degree that I do after years of hands-on ownership. On the other hand I fly for a living now. Its simply not possible to be hands-on with an airliner. You can certainly glean and learn quite a bit from the line mechanics (at least those who want to talk to a pilot), and with maintenance control. Yet the 121 world operates with a high degree of safety, taking airframes to 40K+ flight hours, 60K+ cycles.

 

Back to the OP's question "Why" does it cost so much: It just takes time. With the cost of living and doing business what it is in California, the sticker price should be no surprise. But again, many of those shop labor hours are spent on grunt work, not requiring any type-specific expertise.

[frcabot]

I would kill for a $65/hr shop rate. Twice that, here.

[Shadrach]

I would kill for a $65/hr shop rate. Twice that, here.

Where is here? What's the automotive shop rate in your area?

[1964-M20E]

On a recent flight to IN I had electrical gremlins pop up.  I could have easily found and fixed it myself but I did not have time it was a loose field wire on the alternator.  I told the mechanic where to look and exactly what was touched during annual since I was there doing most of it.  I did not just had him the keys and say I had a problem and left.

 

The only bad part of the experience was when I returned to my plane the door handle was ajar and was jammed.  I'm not sure if it was the mechanic did it or some tired to get in the plane either way I was not a happy camper.  So I showed it to the FBO removed the door panel un-jammed the door latch and left after letting the FBO know I was not happy.  I was there a few weeks earlier for the same amount of time and I had no problems.

 

1.  If it was the mechanic why not just fix it and let me know about it no biggee.

2. The Blue Angels and Canadian Snow Birds were in town and on the ramp as well so police presence was high not the time to go messing with planes on the ramp.

[jetdriven]

The Bravo requires 31 hours of inspection time if done properly by a Mooney knowledgeable mechanic.  Unless a whole shop is put on the airplane, it can't be done in a couple of days.  I've looked at the estimated repair times of all found items, and I can't imagine a mechanic unfamiliar with Mooneys would have found some of the items or been able to fix the items in the time estimated.

 

I'll take a Mooney specify shop, thank you.

Same here. It takes me 3 full 10-12 hour days to do the annual on my 201. That's the M20 series checklist in full and the oil change, etc. repairs are extra, and those average s couple days extra. I don't understand how one can do an annual inspection on a complex retract in 2 days.

I plan a week and I pay the IA who owns the shop a daily rate plus the flat rate for the Inspection which includes paperwork, AD list, etc. it keeps costs down but it does take a few days once a year

[Guest]

Same here. It takes me 3 full 10-12 hour days to do the annual on my 201. That's the M20 series checklist in full and the oil change, etc. repairs are extra, and those average s couple days extra. I don't understand how one can do an annual inspection on a complex retract in 2 days.

I plan a week and I pay the IA who owns the shop a daily rate plus the flat rate for the Inspection which includes paperwork, AD list, etc. it keeps costs down but it does take a few days once a year

I agree fully, after a full week with two of my apprentices I just finished the 100 hour/ annual inspection on my 400 today. The 100 hour per the Piper checklist, plus the Canadaian regulatory requirements of magnetic compass swing, tachometer accuracy check, first aid kit contents inspection all ADs, S/B's and S/I's and all of the snags discovered. Training added some hours but it's still a big job when done right.

Clarence

[frcabot]

I got an estimate for a $9K annual this time around, after an $8K annual last year. WTF. It just annoys me. I think I'm just going to do the bare minimum -- then there are a lot of smaller items but the estimate for each one is like an hour each. At $110 per hour that adds up, especially when it's things like "replace rivet - 1hr." And there are 5 rivets that need replacing or need screws, and suddenly it's a $500 cost item because it's listed 5 different times, when at most it should take 10 minutes or be subsumed in the base cost of the annual inspection, which is already $3K.

 

So I think I will defer all the smaller items, and just find a small local A&P to take care of all of those at the same time for a fraction of the cost.

[Shadrach]

Where are are you based? Given your burning man thread and that the shop rate is $110hr, I'm guessing the Bay Area? There are shops within flying distance that come highly recommended. Bucking the first rivet should take about 15 minutes max (that includes getting out the equipment and hardware, drilling out the old rivet, choosing a rivet size and bucking bar. Subsequent rivets should take well under 10 minutes unless they're in areas that are a challenge to access.