What would you say?

[Shadrach]

Yesterday I flew into a one of my regular western MD destinations. As I was pulling up to my plane with the courtesy truck, I saw the line guy motioning to a woman who was walking away from from a Cirrus SR20 with 3 empty quarts of aeroshell 100 in her hands. He was telling her to throw the empties in the bed of the truck. I then saw a man who turned out to be the pilot holding a 4th empty. I half jokingly asked him if his airplane had taken 4qts of oil, expecting him to say that he had been collecting the empties in the baggage compartment for a while. I was shocked when he said it had taken that much oil and had done this in the past "sporadically". He said he diverted when he noticed his oil pressure was fluctuating to near 0psi and said he had "about" 2qts in the sump when he landed. He said that it was burning about a quart an hour because the engine was near TBO. I asked him what his plan was. He said they were going to fly to their destination about 40 mins to the East. I told him that I thought there was a real problem and that his consumption was likely due to something diagnosable. I asked him if he had pulled the plugs to which he said no. He seemed uninterested in my comments and convinced he just had to feed oil to his high time engine. I checked flight aware and he made it to his destination. I also saw that the diversion flight was only 2:20... 4 quarts in 2:20 is just terrifying to me. I felt like I should have pushed harder or told him the seriousness and irresponsibility of continued flight in an aircraft that is known to eat oil and has been operated with low oil pressure in flight...but I didn't. Maybe it was because he was about 10 years older than me. Or perhaps I did not want to call his judgement into question in front of his wife who seemed all too aware that the plane was burning way to much oil. The last thing I said to her was have a safe flight, to which she replied, "we'll see" with a grin.

What would you all have done?

[N201MKTurbo]

I would wished him a good flight and go on about my business....

[Raptor05121]

I would wished him a good flight and gone about my business....

Ditto. He is a pilot, just as you are. You both make your own decisions as far as I'm concerned.

If the guy kills himself, its a shame, but you didn't force him into the cockpit.

There is a thread like this over on the red boards. Pilot A and Pilot B show up to their plane at the same time. Pilot B is 17, license fresh off the copier, and has a lady suitor with him. As Pilot A begins his preflight, he hears the engine of Pilot B starting up. He questioned people if he should point out a few things about preflight to Pilot B and everyone said "leave it alone"

[PTK]

I agree to a point.

He can make the decision as pic to do whatever he deems appropriate. He has the right to evaluate the risks and decide.

However, he does not have the right to decide for his pax. The moment he makes the conscious decision to take pax along fully aware that an abnormality exists, he or someone needs to alarm them. They need to be informed of the risks and make their own decision.

He knows a problem exists. This needs to be disclosed to the pax.

What's the tipi toeing for? Are we afraid his feelings will get hurt? Are we equally worried about the safety of the pax and the flight?

We have plenty of examples where innocent pax perish due to pilots deciding on their behalf. Most recent one up in Massachusets. How many more do we need?

[Amelia]

Benefit of doubt department: Maybe Pilot B came out to the airport early, did his extensive preflight, flew it around the patch to dust off his freshly-certified landing skills, tied it back down, and went to collect his girlfriend? Well, it MIGHT have happened that way.

 

As for the oil burner, I might have said something like, "Yikes!! That sounds like real trouble brewing. You must have been very worried." and let it go at that.

[Glenn]

Do you think he was influenced by the presence of the parachute?  

[Bob - S50]

You did well.

 

At the airlines we call it CRM (cockpit resource management).  That means, the Captain (CA) uses all sources of information to make the decision.  That includes other people.  At the same time, the First Officer is not supposed to be shy about speaking up when the CA makes what he thinks is a mistake.

 

CRM applies even when it isn't about your plane.  You were providing the pilot with more information to make a proper decision.

 

Its easy to say what you should/would have done in retrospect, but in the heat of the moment I think you did well.  Looking back, if it had been me I might have done about what you did, then afterward I might wish that I had:

 

1.  Taken the pilot aside and talked to him in private so as not to embarrass him.

 

2.  If he was taking the plane to an airport to have the engine overhauled I might have let him go, but offered his wife a ride in my plane (especially if she was cute).  Hey, I'm old, not dead!

 

3.  If he was planning on flying the plane back home from his destination, in other words, planned on continuing to fly the plane; I might be willing to embarrass him in front of his wife by talking about the risks he was taking.  After doing that, I would once again, offer his wife a ride.

 

After that, any decision they made would be up to them.

 

Bob

[Mike A]

Benefit of doubt department: Maybe Pilot B came out to the airport early, did his extensive preflight, flew it around the patch to dust off his freshly-certified landing skills, tied it back down, and went to collect his girlfriend? Well, it MIGHT have happened that way.

 

I do that all the time.  I also load any bags early so I don't have my wife and dogs standing around unnecessarily in the sweltering FL heat.  Got to keep the boss(es) happy.  

[Shadrach]

I don't think this the same as the preflight issue at all. Different aircraft exist under different circumstances. A regularly "owner only" flown bird that lives in climate controlled hangar is not the same as leaseback flight school bird that sits in the wind and the weather in between haviving the crap beat out of it by the next 80hr wonder (we've all been there).

An airplane that will use ALL OF THE OIL in the engine before it burns all of the fuel in the tanks has a known deficiency.

BTW, this guy is based in MN and I'm pretty sure he's going to make his way home without major MX.

[Cruiser]

I didn't look it up but I am almost certain that Continental has a maximum oil consumption value beyond which the engine is deemed not airworthy. He was clearly beyond limits continued operation would be a violation but if he is willing to put his wife and himself in the plane I wouldn't be calling the FAA to report him. His mechanic on the other hand probably shouldn't let the plane out of the shop if it goes in for any reason.

[N201MKTurbo]

FWIW,

 

About 15 years I overheated my engine on takeoff and climb out by not pushing the mixture knob in before takeoff. I did the before takeoff checklist, but then had to hold for a long time and leaned it out so it would idle better. Stuff Happens...

 

Anyway, after a few minuets I glanced at the CHT gauge and it was WAY into the red... Makes you sick to your stomach ... The engine was running fine after that so I flew on for about an Hour and decided to land and give the engine a visual inspection. When I landed I noticed I was two quarts lower then I was when I started. There was no evidence of leakage. I was 800 miles from home and I always want to fix it at home, so I topped it off with oil and flew on for another hour. The oil burn rate was consistent and the engine was working just fine making the normal power. I flew home in two hour legs without incident. I must tell you It is very embarrassing to stop at an airport and tell them to add 4 quarts of oil. I didn't need anybody telling me my engine was messed up, I was very aware of that. 

 

Eventually had to replace all four pistons.

[Shadrach]

I didn't look it up but I am almost certain that Continental has a maximum oil consumption value beyond which the engine is deemed not airworthy. He was clearly beyond limits continued operation would be a violation but if he is willing to put his wife and himself in the plane I wouldn't be calling the FAA to report him. His mechanic on the other hand probably shouldn't let the plane out of the shop if it goes in for any reason.

Way beyond consumption specs. According to him, the belly and engine compartment were so oil soaked that it's impossible to say if it's leaking or blowing out the breather.

[carusoam]

The engine can't possibly run well while burning or passing that much oil. The plugs in the bad cylinder will be coated in ash and oil. The bottom one must be flooded in a pool...

Sounds like an oil ring is gone.

It is one thing to have an external leak, an internal leak has a whole bunch of other problems.

It was generous of you to have the conversation that you did.

In most cases, that would turn a light on in a place that wasn't very well lit previously.

The JPI on the panel is probably indicating what cylinder it is...

The run-up is probably indicating what lower plugs are most effected...

Best regards,

-a-

Three posts above all coming in at the same time...

You can always give your parting advice, like... 'You may want to have a mechanic look at that...'

[marks]

What you said was just about right.  -  Once long ago I saw a brand new pilot greatly overload a Cherokee 140.  He was fueling it up and I stopped him.  I told him the plane might very well not get off the ground and not to put any more fuel in it.  Two giggly young girls and a strong looking guy all got in with the pilot.  I had told the pilot not to turn the plane if climbing became difficult. Several of us watched the plane try to take off and the stress was killing me.  That Cherokee flew between the tops of a few trees and we never saw the plane make the left turn he needed to get to its destination.  He was just too low.  It was a rented plane and those kids had no clue.  If I have a "next time" I'm going to say more because I don't care what they say to me.

[Jim Peace]

 If I have a "next time" I'm going to say more because I don't care what they say to me.

I feel the same way....there are so many pilots in the world who should not have a license.  When innocent passengers are involved you should say something.....

 

Even if it is just the pilot you should say something if you see an unsafe condition or decision.  My copilots have saved me many times......

 

How would you feel if the pilot killed himself or his passengers or flew into a house full of people.....how would you feel if a first responder died while trying to rescue the guy that was clearly overloaded....

 

I would not sleep well that night or many nights afterward.....

 

If anyone sees me doing something stupid (besides flying in a single engine airplane) I will gladly take a delay for your concerns......

[thinwing]

it was the parachute...he was kidding himself that he would be at a safe altitude when the engine finely packed it in.He probably also didnt bother to check the the oil when he took off...the wifes comment belys her fatalistic view even flying with her husband.He is going to make a 30k overhaul into new engine with no core exchange!!

[Guest]

All will be OK, I have a parachute, you on the other hand do not! On the other hand a discreet call to the local FSDO may be in order.

Clarence

[Jim Peace]

All will be OK, I have a parachute, you on the other hand do not! On the other hand a discreet call to the local FSDO may be in order.

Clarence

You are kidding yourself if you think a FSDO cares.  

[N201MKTurbo]

When I had my high oil consumption problem I was only flying it to get home. Leaving home with a problem like that would never happen!

[DrBill]

I had a plane that was burning 1 qt / hr.  No plug fouling and no belly mess.  The next annual I told the guy to pull the low temp cyl.  He did and found a broken oil ring... Re rung the cyl and it went to 1qt in 7 hrs.

I would have expressed concern like you and then let it drop.. He's old enough to make those decisions.

Bill

[MyNameIsNobody]

Stupid is as stupid does. You did the right amount of the right thing. The wife's "We'll see" response let you know she was fully aware that there is a problem with the engine. If she decides to climb in a plane that may NOT climb to chute deployment level before catastrophic failure....so be it. I find the burning of four quarts in 2.2 hours also terrifying. I would not be flying that plane without knowing WHAT is wrong. If they had gone down that is NOT an accident. The plane was telling them and they were not listening.

People are goofy...to the point of being seekers of Darwin.

The primary contributing cause when it went down would be "Stupid cheap bastard" for the pilot. For the wife? Same.

[Shadrach]

The plane was telling them and they were not listening.

 

This ^^^^^ is it in a nutshell...  The thing that was troubling me is that I felt like the plane was telling me too. I may have felt better if the pilot had said something to indicate he had some understanding of aircraft engines and why his was using oil.  If he knew he had case that was fretting or a case crack or a bad rocker box gasket etc...then it becomes a calculated risk. Not that I would suggest that makes it safe or sensible, but at least there's an idea of what's going on. I would never depart in an aircraft using that kind of oil.  I understand that everyone's tolerance for risk is different.  I once flew the 24NM home from KFDK to KHGR with a bad coil on one mag...at night.  I threw that out as a hypothetical on the red board and the majority of responders considered it just a little short of a suicide mission. Everyone's limits are different. The limits ought to be adjusted considerably when there's a passenger on board; especially one that does not fully understand the risks.

[carusoam]

That plane was seeking help from you, Ross.

-a-

[Shadrach]

That plane was seeking help from you, Ross.

-a-

Anthony - I'm not fluent in Cirruese, so I am not sure if it was seeking my help or not.  I am however, fluent in sarcasm...smartass.

[carusoam]

I'm stuck between not saying something and saying something sometimes...

I'm still working on the how to deliver a proper message part.

Best regards,

-a-