I broke my Continental starter adapter

[Guest]

For many parts there is a list price. The shop charging you way more than list is unfair unless they have some rational explanation. Socata gives me as a shop 2% on some parts, I obviously can't make a living at 2% so mark it up a bit more.

I would be asking and negotiating with them.

Clarence

[jetdriven]

Continental was pretty reasonable - its my MRO (Landmark) that's selling to me for 500 over list.  Its a long story, but suffice to say I'm not happy with them...but my plane is apart, AOG, and not worth the hassle of dealing with them anymore. I just want it fixed.  I'll pay their ridiculous sum and take my business elsewhere in the future

Thats their business model.

[GeorgePerry]

For many parts there is a list price. The shop charging you way more than list is unfair unless they have some rational explanation. Socata gives me as a shop 2% on some parts, I obviously can't make a living at 2% so mark it up a bit more.

I would be asking and negotiating with them.

Clarence

 

 

 

I asked...the answer was a flat NO.  It's too bad.  Landmark MRO is right here on my home field, it sure would be convenient.  They charge more than any other shop around and I didn't mind paying a premium as I expected a commensurate level of service.  Additionally I don't mind paying a bit more than list for parts since I understand everyone has to make a living, but their mark up is just short of price gouging and without question excessive.   This on the heals of their avionics shop doing some pretty sorry work that needed multiple trips to correct and the starter adaptor that was working fine when it went in and was broken when it came out.  My concerns fell on deaf ears, and they had no interest in reaching a mutually beneficial accommodation.   The straw was them treating me like an ATM machine.  Oh well...some lessons are costlier than others and I'm joining a long list of local aircraft owners that go out of their way to avoid using them.  Too bad really...

[Bob]

Let's hope they don't rape you for 8 hours for the labor.  Yep, that's what I paid.  8 hours comes to 30 minutes per nut or bolt and 30 min to install upper cowl.  (they started the job with the cowl removed)  I am bad in math, but calculate 5 bolts for adapter, 1 oil line, 4 air pump nuts, 2 starter nuts and 1 positive starter cable.  I think they did the washers under the same hardware for free, but not sure.  Another very, very long story!  But if you are broken and stuck, some feel it is a ticket to steal.  The problem is, greed costs them more than the "big hit" in the long run. 

 

But that's the good part, additional post to follow.  I need to first compose myself!

[Guest]

I asked...the answer was a flat NO.  It's too bad.  Landmark MRO is right here on my home field, it sure would be convenient.  They charge more than any other shop around and I didn't mind paying a premium as I expected a commensurate level of service.  Additionally I don't mind paying a bit more than list for parts since I understand everyone has to make a living, but their mark up is just short of price gouging and without question excessive.   This on the heals of their avionics shop doing some pretty sorry work that needed multiple trips to correct and the starter adaptor that was working fine when it went in and was broken when it came out.  My concerns fell on deaf ears, and they had no interest in reaching a mutually beneficial accommodation.   The straw was them treating me like an ATM machine.  Oh well...some lessons are costlier than others and I'm joining a long list of local aircraft owners that go out of their way to avoid using them.  Too bad really...

That's pretty poor on their part. Certainly won't gain them any long term work.

Clarence

[jetdriven]

They'll gouge the occasional sucker, then lament they have no repeat business which necessitates gouging the next sucker.

We have advocated for a thread about shops that do this to avoid future 3000$ lessons but that didn't go over well.

Sorry to hear your story, George. If it were me, I'd tell them to put the cowl on and push it outside. I'd change it myself.

If not that, hire the guy who does Pleisse's annuals to change it. Either eay, control the situation.

AOPA oughta do a few stories on this kind of behavior.

[GeorgePerry]

I thought about that.  There are other maint options on the field, but I didn't want to put any other A&P in the position of having to finish a partially completed repair.  I don't think that would be fair to them.  I know the COO of landmark pretty well and I plan to write him a short note.  I will say that as a company, I do like landmark.  They are an excellent FBO chain.  However the FDK location, as I've come to find out has a poor reputation for maintenance and avionics work (expensive and poor quality).

 

Separately I think an "Angie's List" for aviation that could rank shops and maintenance providers is a super idea.  It's really difficult to know if one persons opinion is representative or just the flames of an unreasonable customer.  If the aviation community holistically could comment openly about MRO's and FBO's that would provide a broader sampling and make it easier for aircraft owners to judge a shop.  This would go a long way toward driving business to the better providers and isolating the bad ones.  AIRNAV comes the closest to having this feature and allows feedback, but typically its limited to fuel service and FBO amenities.  Pilots don't usually post about maintenance.   

[N601RX]

Aero In Stock and Aircraft Specialties both sell engine parts for considerably less than list price.

[Marauder]

I thought about that. There are other maint options on the field, but I didn't want to put any other A&P in the position of having to finish a partially completed repair. I don't think that would be fair to them. I know the COO of landmark pretty well and I plan to write him a short note. I will say that as a company, I do like landmark. They are an excellent FBO chain. However the FDK location, as I've come to find out has a poor reputation for maintenance and avionics work (expensive and poor quality).

Separately I think an "Angie's List" for aviation that could rank shops and maintenance providers is a super idea. It's really difficult to know if one persons opinion is representative or just the flames of an unreasonable customer. If the aviation community holistically could comment openly about MRO's and FBO's that would provide a broader sampling and make it easier for aircraft owners to judge a shop. This would go a long way toward driving business to the better providers and isolating the bad ones. AIRNAV comes the closest to having this feature and allows feedback, but typically its limited to fuel service and FBO amenities. Pilots don't usually post about maintenance.

As Byron mentioned, we advocated a few times for a place to post shops that we were happy with. Just like your Angie's List suggestion. I'm sure the fear over libel is the concern, but if we keep it to the positive ones and eliminate the negative comments, at least there would be benefit for those looking for good shops.

Maybe this is something AOPA could offer...

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[GeorgePerry]

We've talked about it, but it's a precarious position to take as AOPA's charter is to support aviation.  Bad reviews runs counter to that mission.  It probably better if the marketplace manages itself.

[jetdriven]

Getting blown up for 1200$ to R&R a magneto,

2500$ for a prebuy in which nothing was inspected,

5K for a starter adaptor, or

8K for a Cherokee 180 annual also are counter to supporting aviation. After a few of these, people simply leave the hobby.

 

AaronK25 had a shop refuse to use his preferred shop to overhaul the engine. He took command of the situation and rolled it outside with no engine on it and had someone else install the Jewell engine. But point is, he was about to get bent for ten grand. And it happens every day.

[tony]

George, I kinda agree with Byron. 

[Marauder]

We've talked about it, but it's a precarious position to take as AOPA's charter is to support aviation. Bad reviews runs counter to that mission. It probably better if the marketplace manages itself.

George -- unfortunate there is no marketplace group that watches over our interests. Thought that is what you guys were supposed to do. My suggestion was for a location for positive experiences (recommended shops) to be recorded. It will mean they need to be submitted, approved and then posted. I agree that negatives will get you nowhere.

As for the need; if you want to know why you have dwindling membership, just look at the age demographics of your membership. Most of us, including me, could be part of the new Jurassic Park movie -- as the dinosaurs. (Could this be the reason you shaved your head, so we can't see the gray? )

Aviation is expensive and the only participants are those who can afford to. And more and more of us are walking away not because the passion is gone, but because the cost versus benefit equation is not working. If I look at how much I spent on flying last year, I could have hired a personal limousine to drive me everywhere.

I applaud groups that encourage young aviators but when the economic reality of a $300 gear switch & $4000 starter adapter parts are there, who in their right mind can encourage others to share in this passion? My wife had it right when she said "it would have been cheaper if you had a cocaine habit".

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[GeorgePerry]

I agree something needs to be done.  Let me work on this.  Thanks for the feedback and the thoughtful arguments.  

[Bob]

I feel that I should now post an update since enough time has passed and any error has been eliminated from my findings.  After my starter adapter broke, due to kickback, the timing was checked and both mags were found to be advanced beyond acceptable limits. In addition one magneto was timed at 4 degrees more advanced than the other.  This is unfortunate since I had a annual and top overhaul at Poplar Grove Airmotive just 12 hrs before I had the kickback issue.  The more advanced mag was on the right side and was also the one that was removed and reinstalled for repairs while in for service at Poplar Grove.

Proper timing is very critical to avoid kickback!

For those that did not tie my two threads together, here is the other.

Edited October 27, 2015 by Bob

[FlyWalt]

Separately I think an "Angie's List" for aviation that could rank shops and maintenance providers is a super idea.  It's really difficult to know if one persons opinion is representative or just the flames of an unreasonable customer.

Here Here. Super idea is an understatement in this case. 

On another note, I tend to think that companies like Landmark are really focused on the Biz Jet and Turbo prop owners who are a much bigger ticket client. Our aircraft represent small potatoes to them and hence they will not negotiate. As a result I make a point of ALWAYS going to the LOCALLY OWNED FBO when I go to a big airport with a choice.

With that I am going to throw out a THANK YOU to Flightline First at KNEW. With great service, very reasonably priced fuel and 20 dollar/night hangar space, they are a perfect example of what makes me a loyal customer.

[jetdriven]

I think I think poplar grove owes you a new starter adapter and costs associated with the breakdown. 

[Guest]

I like the idea of an Angie's List for service providers, I'd hope to be on it.  But I'd also like to see a list for shop owners to post customer reviews.  I'd add customers who blame me for the cost of parts, the cost of overhauling their components or for the costs involved in fixing years neglected maintenance.

Clarence

[Bob]

I think I think poplar grove owes you a new starter adapter and costs associated with the breakdown. 

I requested that they cover the part and I the labor and it was denied.  Unfortunately they are too arrogant to accept any responsibility.    When I suggested timing being the cause, I was told "We have been timing engines for over 20 years and could not have set it wrong."  The wrong timing was found by a reputable Mooney Service Center.