Safe Landing Distance

[bonal]

IMC no argument there. When doing unusual attitude training it's fascinating how your senses lie to you. I always wondered if there is a set series of maneuvers an IP or examiner does to disorient the pilot while eyes are closed. It was one of my favorite parts of my flight training.

[Andy95W]

I think I'd find a different CFI. Ask him to try that method in Denver, then ask him how many times he gets the stall horn on final.

When I give BFRs, (I know, they're actually just FRs now) I always cover up the ASI for at least one approach and landing, to an appropriate airport and runway, of course. At least once on downwind, base, and final, I have the pilot take a peek at the ASI to see how they're doing.

You'd be amazed at how accurately a decent, experienced pilot can do that just by using power, pitch, noise, and feel. (I'm lucky, I don't have to fly with the other kind anymore unless I want to.)

If your instructor doesn't do this for you, you should find another instructor.

[Mooneymite]

When I give BFRs, (I know, they're actually just FRs now) I always cover up the ASI for at least one approach and landing, to an appropriate airport and runway, of course. At least once on downwind, base, and final, I have the pilot take a peek at the ASI to see how they're doing.

You'd be amazed at how accurately a decent, experienced pilot can do that just by using power, pitch, noise, and feel. (I'm lucky, I don't have to fly with the other kind anymore unless I want to.)

If your instructor doesn't do this for you, you should find another instructor.

 

On some BFR's it's nice when the pilot can identify the ASI and tell me what it does.....

 

[midlifeflyer]

I don't know where you're getting this "fixating" idea. Scanning instruments should be a normal part of every maneuver you do in an aircraft, just like looking outside should be a normal part of every maneuver (unless you're IMC).

I picked up the technique from the guy who takes a view he disagrees with, exaggerates it to something it's not and then attacks his own construct, accusing the other side of using straw men.

[midlifeflyer]

When I give BFRs, (I know, they're actually just FRs now) I always cover up the ASI for at least one approach and landing, to an appropriate airport and runway, of course. At least once on downwind, base, and final, I have the pilot take a peek at the ASI to see how they're doing.

You'd be amazed at how accurately a decent, experienced pilot can do that just by using power, pitch, noise, and feel. (I'm lucky, I don't have to fly with the other kind anymore unless I want to.)

If your instructor doesn't do this for you, you should find another instructor.

The real point is that they don't have to be that decent and experienced. Pre-solo students do it just fine.

[Bob - S50]

Flying with an inoperative ASI is an emergency as far as I'm concerned.

 

If I am on a BFR and the CFI insists on covering my ASI, I would tell him the BFR is over, I'd head home, and I'd find another CFI for the BFR.

 

Without an ASI, my only indication other than seat of the pants is the stall warning.  I do not intend to flirt with a stall at low altitude just to prove a point.  I would probably tend to fly faster than needed to be safe and might also be flirting with overspeeding my flaps.  In an emergency I wouldn't care.  To prove a point I'm not willing to risk a stall or aircraft damage.

 

I can use my eyes to replace heading, altitude, bank angle, and navigation, but I cannot use them to replace airspeed.

 

Bob

[rbridges]

My home field is 5k feet.  I would say that I use 2500 on average counting landing beyond the threshold and not standing on the brakes.  I don't think I'd like to go in and out of a field under 2500 on a consistent basis, but that's just me.  

[rbridges]

You should do a day trip down to Cedar Key (KCDK) sometime, Rob. It is an unobstructed 2355' with a bit of a displaced threshold on one end. The runway there is 100' wide, which is certainly a good thing, but it probably makes it look shorter than it really is. There isn't a whole lot there other than a taste of "old" Florida, but it is too good a local flying destination to pass up.

Jim

 

I've been there in a cherokee,  that would be a nail biter for me in the mooney.  

[Shadrach]

Flying with an inoperative ASI is an emergency as far as I'm concerned.

 

If I am on a BFR and the CFI insists on covering my ASI, I would tell him the BFR is over, I'd head home, and I'd find another CFI for the BFR.

 

Without an ASI, my only indication other than seat of the pants is the stall warning.  I do not intend to flirt with a stall at low altitude just to prove a point.  I would probably tend to fly faster than needed to be safe and might also be flirting with overspeeding my flaps.  In an emergency I wouldn't care.  To prove a point I'm not willing to risk a stall or aircraft damage.

 

I can use my eyes to replace heading, altitude, bank angle, and navigation, but I cannot use them to replace airspeed.

 

Bob

It's not that big of a deal Bob, and it would not be abnormal for a CFI to ask you to perform such a task. With the auto pilot or PC disengaged control feel will give you a reasonable idea of how much margin you have. The ailerons get progressively lighter as speed diminishes. I don't think it's a good idea for a new to Mooney pilot to go into a 2500 foot strip on a hot day with no ASI but it certainly can be done safely.

[Shadrach]

I've been there in a cherokee,  that would be a nail biter for me in the mooney.  

You'd be fine with a little practice.  The video below is of us going into a field that is 1840' with a 330' displaced threshold.  It's slightly up hill so we landed with a right to left quartering tailwind.  One go around due to an updraft.  On the landing we used normal braking and then a touch of power to climb the slight hill at the end. 1510' of available runway.  I did not use a short field technique as I was wary of dragging my GoPro in the flare. A C model landing in a modest headwind can be down and stopped in <1200' with very little drama.

 

http://mooneyspace.com/topic/15079-clearview-2w2-go-around-and-landing/

[gsxrpilot]

Ross,

 

Would you be willing to post or send some close up pictures of the belly mount for your GoPro?

 

Thanks,

[Shadrach]

Ross,

 

Would you be willing to post or send some close up pictures of the belly mount for your GoPro?

 

Thanks,

 

Absolutley!  I'll snap some this evening when I'm at the drome. It's just in front of the beacon on a standard GoPro sticky mount. It was hanging down below the beacon by several inches when this was shot.  I have since swapped out some hardware to raise it up a bit. 

[Mooneymite]

Flying with an inoperative ASI is an emergency as far as I'm concerned.

 

I can use my eyes to replace heading, altitude, bank angle, and navigation, but I cannot use them to replace airspeed.

 

Bob, I agree that flying with an inoperative ASI is an abnormal situation.  However, it is something that does occur....sometimes something as simple as a bug in the pitot tube can bring it on, but a badly iced airplane would be much trickier.  Each of us must be prepared to deal with it, but if you think about it, in most of our cockpits we have lots of resources.

 

Knowing your pitch/power combinations and where your trim is "normally" set for various configurations/conditions is paramount, but we can also make educated guesses about airspeed based on GPS groundspeed and estimated wind information.  The feel of the airplane's controls as you approach stall speed, the noise level (if you take off those noise cancelling headsets!) and the indications of other working instruments all go a long way toward mitigating loss of IAS.  Remember, too that ATC can provide groundspeed information if they can see you.

 

Abnormal, yes....emergency, maybe, but your training can mitigate this situation.

[Marauder]

I lost my ASI probably 100 hours into ownership. It was a strange event since on take-off the airspeed was indicating fine but no more than 200 feet in the air, it went to 0.

I flew the pattern and did it all by power settings that I learned. Although it was a bit unnerving, I never heard the stall warning horn until the flare.

The culprit turned out to be this little bad boy that was installed on the pitot tube. Never understood how it flipped back down, but it did.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Andy95W]

Flying with an inoperative ASI is an emergency as far as I'm concerned.

 

If I am on a BFR and the CFI insists on covering my ASI, I would tell him the BFR is over, I'd head home, and I'd find another CFI for the BFR.

 

Bob

Bob, I think you're missing the point of the Flight Review.

The Flight Review is your opportunity to practice some things you normally wouldn't and to get "outside your comfort zone" in a controlled, safe environment.

I agree that flying with an inoperative ASI is an emergency. So is an engine failure. Would you fire your CFI for simulating an engine failure?

[Shadrach]

I lost my ASI probably 100 hours into ownership. It was a strange event since on take-off the airspeed was indicating fine but no more than 200 feet in the air, it went to 0.

I flew the pattern and did it all by power settings that I learned. Although it was a bit unnerving, I never heard the stall warning horn until the flare.

The culprit turned out to be this little bad boy that was installed on the pitot tube. Never understood how it flipped back down, but it did.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I had the same issue in a rental C172.  It was the same type device but it had a collar around the Pitot as opposed to screwing on the front. ASI went dead at 200ft AGL climbing out KMTN into a moonless night.  I returned immediately, stopped on the taxi way and through the thing into the weeds.  I was really pissed. I had 2 young women with me (together they were about a 3rd of one of yours) and they were both terrified because of the return to base. We made it to Easton and then St Michaels for dinner, but it put a damper on the evening.

[Hank]

You should do a day trip down to Cedar Key (KCDK) sometime, Rob. It is an unobstructed 2355' with a bit of a displaced threshold on one end. The runway there is 100' wide, which is certainly a good thing, but it probably makes it look shorter than it really is. There isn't a whole lot there other than a taste of "old" Florida, but it is too good a local flying destination to pass up.

Jim

Looks like fun! We need to schedule a lunch run there. I normally make the midfield turnoff at my 5000' home, but I trained and was based for seven years at an obstructed 3000' field (makes for great training! But it was a while before I landed there as a student. . . ). Just let the job situation settle down first. You in, Rob?

[atn_pilot]

Flying with an inoperative ASI is an emergency as far as I'm concerned.

 

If I am on a BFR and the CFI insists on covering my ASI, I would tell him the BFR is over, I'd head home, and I'd find another CFI for the BFR.

 

Without an ASI, my only indication other than seat of the pants is the stall warning.  I do not intend to flirt with a stall at low altitude just to prove a point.  I would probably tend to fly faster than needed to be safe and might also be flirting with overspeeding my flaps.  In an emergency I wouldn't care.  To prove a point I'm not willing to risk a stall or aircraft damage.

 

I can use my eyes to replace heading, altitude, bank angle, and navigation, but I cannot use them to replace airspeed.

 

Bob

 

While it's a good idea to practice so you can see what it's like, it should be done by you looking outside and not looking at the ASI, while a safety pilot or CFI in the right seat is keeping an eye on the ASI to make sure you don't get too close to stall or overspeed anything. Completely covering the ASI while close to the ground is just plain stupid. Even with a failed ASI, most pilots have at least a handheld GPS or iPad nowadays giving them groundspeed, and any sane individual would use that backup to approximate airspeed if an ASI failed. All of this macho BS about "seat of the pants" flying needs to go the way of the dodo.

[Andy95W]

While it's a good idea to practice so you can see what it's like, it should be done by you looking outside and not looking at the ASI, while a safety pilot or CFI in the right seat is keeping an eye on the ASI to make sure you don't get too close to stall or overspeed anything. Completely covering the ASI while close to the ground is just plain stupid. Even with a failed ASI, most pilots have at least a handheld GPS or iPad nowadays giving them groundspeed, and any sane individual would use that backup to approximate airspeed if an ASI failed. All of this macho BS about "seat of the pants" flying needs to go the way of the dodo.

Since when was training for an emergency "macho BS"?

A folded sectional is an excellent way to block a pilot's view of the instrument panel but still allow the CFI full view of the ASI. Figured I should explain that, in case your common sense went the way of the dodo...

[rbridges]

Hi, Hank. Sounds good to me! It is just a question of scheduling on my end. Not much free time these days, unfortunately. I have been having to sneak flights in lately at odd times just to keep the machine exercised.

 

that actually sounds like a good idea.  I will bring my anchor just in case I start getting too close to the end.

[Tommy]

There is really no such thing as a "safe" landing distance. Runway distance is no guarantee of a safe landing, it's simply more forgiving and accommodating for any deviation from normal approach. 

 

I think a better term will be "comfortable" landing distance. ie. no sweaty palms and palpitations on final. For me it's about 3000 feet. 

[Bob - S50]

Andy,

 

No, I would not fire them for a simulated engine failure because I still have everything I need to safely control the airplane, he has just turned me into a glider.  Even gliders have an ASI.

 

As for the ASI:

 

1.  Since the ASI is on the left side of the ADI, the CFI would have to reach across me to cover the ASI.  They would either have to put their arm between me and the control wheel or between the control wheel and the panel.   I do not think that would be practical.

 

2.  If at least one of us can see and actually watches the ASI, then I would not have a problem with it.  I just don't see how that could be done without the CFI interfering with my access to flight controls.

 

Bob

[carusoam]

Data point...

Primary training in a C152. Part of the training using the Cessna Pilot training curriculum was learning to maintain control of the aircraft during various failures.

ASI was one of them. Power, pitch and configuration can consistently control the airspeed. The stall warning horn was the safety back-up if you didn't notice the decay of airspeed...

Since ASI can be disabled easily in real life by a bug or a cover being left on. Training is the one thing that can help.

I am sure that my CFI reviewed how to manage air speed without the ASI. When he covered the instrument in the pre-post it notes days, it wasn't a surprise and the pilot new how to handle it...

Or am I thinking something different than what you guys are talking about?

All instruments wear and fail. Especially if your plane is older than you are.

Expect it,

-a-

[Andy95W]

Bob, I promise I'll stop getting my panties in a bunch.

Anthony's comments, above, are pretty lucid and to the point.

I hope you do have the opportunity to find a nice 7,000 - 8,000 foot long runway to try this for yourself with a CFI you know and trust. I think you'll get a nice boost of confidence in your own abilities in return.

[Guitarmaster]

Flying with an inoperative ASI is an emergency as far as I'm concerned.

If I am on a BFR and the CFI insists on covering my ASI, I would tell him the BFR is over, I'd head home, and I'd find another CFI for the BFR.

Without an ASI, my only indication other than seat of the pants is the stall warning. I do not intend to flirt with a stall at low altitude just to prove a point. I would probably tend to fly faster than needed to be safe and might also be flirting with overspeeding my flaps. In an emergency I wouldn't care. To prove a point I'm not willing to risk a stall or aircraft damage.

I can use my eyes to replace heading, altitude, bank angle, and navigation, but I cannot use them to replace airspeed.

Bob

Interesting. During the pre-pp days. Still a solo pilot, I launched and found I had no ASI. . Somewhat unnerving to be sure. I elected to return to the field. I was subsequently chewed out for not flying the airplane home, which the instructor/airline pilot later did himself. Turns out, a bee crawled in and made himself at home, blocking the pitot.

He explained the benefits of learning to control the airplane in all phases of flight with pitch and power only. I learned to do this and to this day, ASI is really a nicety rather than a necessity. Granted, we have stall warning systems and stall strips to give a heads-up. Some experimental don't and have some wild stall characteristics to say the least. To me, a bad mannered airplane shouldn't be operated anyway.

Some years ago, my company had a 737 that the static ports got iced up on the ground. They departed and had no/erroneous ASI. They flew pitch and power and turned safely.

Point is, if you are familiar with your plane, flying without ASI should not be a be a big issue. That being said....

I agree, during a simple BFR, the risk vs reward is far too high.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk