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Wind shear


blakealbers

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For starters, not bragging but I have had nothing but greasers in the bravo. I found it much easier to land than a 182 or 206. Today when I was coming in it was 13/gust 23 3 degrees off runway heading. Had the left wing down a bit 2/3rd flaps into the wind high 70s IAS. Light fuel two light people. Things were going well and all the sudden the music stopped. Aerodynamic rug gone. Looking for any advice from high time mooney guys on gusty days, maybe the result would of been the same in the 182 and it was just a fluke. But trying to blame myself and critique before I store that experience in the back of my mind. About 50 hours in mooney. Some gusty and crosswind days with no troubles till today. Any advice would be appreciated.

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In conditions like that, carry some power all the way into flare, then pull back once established few feet over the runway in a proper attitude. Really prevents the bottom from dropping out. Bet you pulled power all the way back over the numbers at 50 feet. With good headwind like that, you're not going to float for a long time anyway, but with gusts is pretty easy to loose energy quickly and that's what happened when the bottom dropped out. You probably flared a bit higher too.

 

Also, why only 2/3 flaps? Trust me, Bravo lands much better with full flaps, even in some strong winds. Flaps on Mooneys are not that effective anyway, drag wise. With full flaps, it's easier to carry a bit of power without picking up speed.

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+1 Andy I agree in those conditions I make more controlled landings carrying a little power and almost fly it on the runway and flare sometimes in those conditions you may get into ground effect lose patience then plant it on causing a hard hit. I was coming into Tunica a couple of yrs ago and had wing shear flat spotted one tire and was quite lucky, the Cirrus behind me had the airport closed for a couple hrs...said he hit wind shear which I mentioned as I taxied off and he rolled it up on the runway totalling a pretty new sr22 but he was unhurt..were always learning, I guess when we think we're good and don't need to practice we should quit while alive. I stopped flying with a good friend who has a nice Bo..a few yrs ago he stopped practicing and the last two times I flew with him he stopped using his checklist, I asked him nicely where it was and he told me it was in his head..that was my last flight with him..

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Gusty winds only use T/O flaps, start at +5 kts over your normal landing speed (with full flaps), and add half the gust factor differential to derive your approach speed.  That's my general rule of thumb...

 

Do you have an infinitely variable flap switch in your Bravo?  I only have two positions, T/O and Full.

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A little unrelated, but I do that all the time in these threads: I have had the wind pick me up after I've landed and weathervane me towards the side of the runway. Fortunately it was a 150ft wide runway and I was on the centerline so I was able to correct before taking an excursion. A taildragger pilot says to me, "you've always got to keep those ailerons set for the wind direction." 

 

I experienced something like you described in a 180hp Archer before as well. I opted to do a go around when my approach wasn't right. The Archer had Johnson bar flaps with four "clicks." I grab it and start pulling the flaps up after applying full power and establishing positive climb. The ratcheting mechanism gave way and it dumped the flaps and I found myself falling. I wasn't stalled, but I pitched down like you would in a recovery and got out of it. 

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Two reasons to use T/O flaps in the Bravo in certain high wind conditions:

 

1) Improved aileron responsiveness; and

2) Avoids ballooning from sudden wind gusts.

 

Many years ago....landed...sort of...in Flagstaff with winds at 20G30...using full flaps.  Got into ground effect, got the mains on the ground softly, and a gust literally picked up the plane.  Thankfully salvaged a go-around out of that...but it wasn't your typical too fast bounced landing.  Pure wind gust.  Next time around, I used T/O flaps and made the landing.

 

Later, I queried Bob Kromer (former Mooney guru at the factory) and he told me that the technique is to use T/O flaps or no flaps in such high wind gusts for the two reasons stated above.  Done it that way since then based on his recommendation.

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Technique only, and subject to modification.  At Delta we add half the headwind component and all the gust to our approach speed.  So 12G20 down the runway we would add 6 for the headwind and 8 more for the gust would be adding 14knots to the approach speed.  I can't really see a good reason to add speed for the headwind other than to get to the runway faster so in the Mooney I'll probably just add the gust factor.  In this case, I'd probably add 8 knots (in reality I'm not that good so I'd add 10).  The idea being that if you are flying with the extra speed, and the gust takes that extra speed away, you still have your normal flying speed.

 

Higher speeds mean longer landing distances.  However, with lots of wind, landing distance will be shorter.  In reality, your speed over the ground will be the same or lower than normal so your landing distance will probably be about the same.

 

As for landing with no flaps in a crosswind, I still need to practice that.  I'm guessing they recommend that because doing so will require a higher speed on final in order to keep the normal 1.3 times stall speed.  The higher speed will in turn give the rudder more authority which will allow for  a more significant crab in the flare.

 

Bob

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I think i was concerned with the ballooning, and found out that id far rather balloon than drop.  Precise, soft landings have always been a point of pride and a "sport" of some sorts for me, so this was frustrating and not to mention could have ended very poorly for the airplane.  For a moment there i was truly concerned about how that was going to work out.I came out of a 182 with the barn doors so taking flaps out for wind was common. So it appears about half of you want to maintain normal full flap landing with more power and others think bring more speed and less flaps.  Andy I think youre right, I thought i had the the landing made cut the power too early, probably would have floated a long ways had i not but thats a non issue compared to the aerodynamic rug no longer being under you.    

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  • 1 month later...

I think i was concerned with the ballooning, and found out that id far rather balloon than drop.  Precise, soft landings have always been a point of pride and a "sport" of some sorts for me, so this was frustrating and not to mention could have ended very poorly for the airplane.  For a moment there i was truly concerned about how that was going to work out.I came out of a 182 with the barn doors so taking flaps out for wind was common. So it appears about half of you want to maintain normal full flap landing with more power and others think bring more speed and less flaps.  Andy I think youre right, I thought i had the the landing made cut the power too early, probably would have floated a long ways had i not but thats a non issue compared to the aerodynamic rug no longer being under you.    

 

You're not going to float a long time with that much headwind. Robs you of energy pretty quickly vs a calm wind day due to much lower ground speed/inertia.

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I am in the partial flaps/no flaps camp in my 231. I can't tell you how many times I have tried the full flaps landing in gusty conditions and had the plane yaw and balloon right above the runway. You simply have too much lift, and that is particularly true if you increase speed for gusty conditions. I have about a thousand landings in my plane. I now use full flaps only for low wind, no gust conditions or where I must make a short field landing. Most gust conditions I use half flaps and keep the speed up. Normal landing is 75, gusty landing is 85 and half flaps, that gives rudder authority to deal with sudden crosswind gusts right at the runway level. Up around 20 nots of crosswind it will be no flaps at all and as much as 90 knots. Fly it down to the runway and pull the power there.

Keep the aileron all the way into the wind after touchdown. Land on the upwind side of the runway. Expect some downwind skittering as the plane slows but is still too light on its feet to have sufficient traction to resist the wind.

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L

I am in the partial flaps/no flaps camp in my 231. I can't tell you how many times I have tried the full flaps landing in gusty conditions and had the plane yaw and balloon right above the runway. You simply have too much lift, and that is particularly true if you increase speed for gusty conditions. I have about a thousand landings in my plane. I now use full flaps only for low wind, no gust conditions or where I must make a short field landing. Most gust conditions I use half flaps and keep the speed up. Normal landing is 75, gusty landing is 85 and half flaps, that gives rudder authority to deal with sudden crosswind gusts right at the runway level. Up around 20 nots of crosswind it will be no flaps at all and as much as 90 knots. Fly it down to the runway and pull the power there.

Keep the aileron all the way into the wind after touchdown. Land on the upwind side of the runway. Expect some downwind skittering as the plane slows but is still too light on its feet to have sufficient traction to resist the wind.

That sounds right, except my own speeds are somewhat slower. Plus, right after touchdown, I raise the flaps with my pinky while holding the throttle to Idle.

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Put me in the No Flaps camp with any significant cross wind. Higher speed equals better control surface authority. And as soon as the wheels touch, the yoke goes full into the wind. With that, the wheels are glued to the runway. No drifting, lifting, or ballooning. It works every time in my little C.

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I always land with full flaps in gusty conditions. I landed in Knox, IN in April on runway 18, and the winds were 250/29 gusting 36. It was a bit of a challenge, but not a big deal. I felt I had plenty of aileron and rudder authority to land with it, and sometimes, more often than not - I'll land with the speed brakes out so it will help me settle the airplane on the runway faster. It's never caused "solid" landings, but it helps to avoid floating. I like that. I usually grease it on every time.

 

Not to mention - take the airplane out, as I have done, on great weather days and land with full flaps and the spoilers out... and then go around at the last minute. Practice it. Unless you're grossly overweight, the airplane will power itself right out into a positive climb. I find the Bravo's performance is impeccable under conditions like that. After you add full thrust and have a positive rate, stow the boards, pull the gear up, set T/O flaps, and then at acceleration altitude just clean the airplane up like you normally do and transition to cruise or pattern speeds.

 

I love how this airplane can do so much and be so ready for any challenge I have for it. 

 

Each person can do what they feel comfortable with, but I have to highly disagree with the above method of using full flaps with large crosswinds, no matter the experience of the poster.  (You can check out my Mooney Experience on my website: www.donkaye.com).  While it might have worked with that large headwind component, there is just no way there is sufficient rudder in the Bravo with the above conditions and full flaps unless using the Barry Schiff technique, and that is not for the average pilot.   I can just about guarantee that side loads were placed on the wheels with that landing.

 

Also, doing approaches with speed brakes extended can be VERY dangerous to your health and those of any passengers you have on board.  I once did a test in strong wind conditions to see it speed brakes could help stabilize the approach.   I hit such a strong downdraft at one point in the approach that even with full power the Bravo continued to sink.  It was only after retracting the speed brakes that a climb was restored.  Full flaps would have made that situation worse with the added drag.

 

If I turn final with full flaps and the wind correction angle is greater than about 15°, it's reduce flaps to approach flaps or none and increase speed until I do have that maximum wind correction angle.  Then land with power and gradually reduce it.  If at any time during the power reduction you can't hold the runway, then you can still go around.  Admittedly this requires a longer runway, but so be it.  If the landing can't be made, then you have to go to another airport.  I've done landings in excess of 35 knots direct crosswind (no headwind component) in the Bravo using that technique, and so far have not had to go around.  I've had my Bravo for nearly 23 years now.

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I am also in the partial flaps camp in the J for the reasons stated with regard to rudder authority. The other thing that I like about having partial (in my plane takeoff flaps) is that there is a higher likelihood of a rejected landing / go around in a high crosswind or gust situation. Having to make significant trim and flap adjustments is one less thing I will need to deal with when its time to get out of dodge.

Brad

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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I am also in the partial flaps camp in the J for the reasons stated with regard to rudder authority. The other thing that I like about having partial (in my plane takeoff flaps) is that there is a higher likelihood of a rejected landing / go around in a high crosswind or gust situation. Having to make significant trim and flap adjustments is one less thing I will need to deal with when its time to get out of dodge.

Brad

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

You only need to a full flap go around once to realize how Popeye "gots his musckles"

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In my aircraft the trim is not as fast as the flaps and it does require some "popeye" to keep the nose down. I usually start the trim first, then the flaps. There is a little bit of a delay in the trim running and that overcomes the delay.

I will sometimes use full flaps and rarer, the speedbrakes, during the final descent if the approach has been fast for some reason and I need to get the speed down. So I might drop full flaps when I turn the corner downwind to base. But the flaps and brakes come out again when I am on final and have the airspeed where I want it.

I was reading my POH a couple of months ago. I always thought the max demonstrated was in the 15-17 knots range. Its not, its 12 knots. That ought to tell you a little about the need for extra speed and rudder authority, at least in my aircraft, I believe the tail got a little bigger in later models.

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All it tells me is people have been inventing imaginary "mooney" problems, the worst being mooney owners. Going to find some winds and runways this weekend and shoot a video. All landings will be full flap, there will be no side load on the gear, and I'll perform a miracle called crab and kick with utmost precision. Up until I read this thread, I did not realize you can land any other way in crosswind. Silly me walking around all these years not realizing I'm a super pilot.

 

Flaps exist for a reason. Landings. Crosswind, upwind, downwind, doesn't matter. Slower you touch down, the safer the entire operation. 

 

Landing in a 35knot direct crosswind in a light single should be considered an emergency and not something to be bragged about by our esteemed instructor. Were there no other airports around?

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  • 1 month later...

i think flap use goes hand and hand with whatever xwind tech used...crab and kick or banked into the wind ,up wind wheel first.For gusts though its no flaps or approach flaps as Don has pointed out....The deployment of the Mooney flaps to full always induces an unwanted pitch down due to the center of lift shifting.So that is why I am in the no or apr only flaps for landing in gusty xwinds...I believe it is much easier to drive a Bravo banked onto the runway than timing the last minute crab and kick...too many varibles present for the average pilot..k

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