Stupid stuff ; landing , starting?

[carl]

Hello,

 This is stupid, and I am the first to admit it.

 

 Stupid #1

 I have a hard time landing, there I said it . After flying at 170 mph , I am supposed to slow down to 90 mph

downwind, 85 base , and final. then I float before I bounce and go around , and then I do it again and land.

I use full flaps( both times).

 

I know I need practice, but I am approaching 14 hours in the mooney M20E, I must be doing something wrong.

 

What MPH numbers do you use for downwind , base, final, 

Are you changing the throttle as you go through these stages or  do you use a constant throttle setting.

 

Stupid# 2 

As a sight reference;

At a 1000 feet pattern altitude , left downwind, where do you put your left wingtip?I put mine on the runway, is that the right place? 

 

Stupid #3

Starting cold, I got down well, but today after flying 45 minutes, landing, going to lunch, coming back an hour later, I had a bear of a time starting. I guess I flooded it. 

What is your choice for hot starts and flooded methods, there are a bunch ?

I though it would be a cold start after an hour, but maybe it wasn't . 68 degrees , sitting in the sun on the ramp( and Summer is coming) When do you decide to use a hot start vs a cold?

I have the E which is fuel injected . 

 

Just to be clear,I am a licensed pilot with about 160 hours in a Grumman AA-5 Traveler, a very different plane, but I could start and land that plane.

 

My next flight will be pattern work and flying the pattern  by the numbers . I am just looking for some reference points. 

 

Thanks 

 

carl

 

 

 

 

[MyNameIsNobody]

Just don't force it. I shoot for 75-80MPH over the fence. Power is off. Runway is made. Last time I look at speed. Let it come down, round out and DON'T FORCE IT. Let speed bleed off and hold it off as long as you can.

I fly a tight pattern, but just go by feel, not wing method.

I don't touch a thing after I shut down in my E. No prime. No throttle movement. Touch the key and mixture in when she fires. Works for me....Except when it doesn't. Then flooded start.

Good for you on full flaps. Took me a while to use full flaps on landing and take-off flaps for all take-offs.

Have fun learning your plane. You will get there faster than the Yankee so even with a couple go-arounds you are way ahead and get a little more flying/practice in. All good.

[carl]

Thanks ,

I will work on it 

[doubbrunn]

Don't know if you have speed brakes but I use them in landing an Ovation

[Bob_Belville]

85 mph is too fast on short final in our M20Es. 75 is about 1.3 times Vs0 at gross so that a reasonable speed on final with plenty of runway and no big gusts. But when the field is made and particularly if you're well below gross 1.2 x stall or more like 65 mph is you target. And you'll have a hard time landing with full flaps and power. when it's flare time the throttle should be at idle.

 

With some practice it will become natural. Mooneys are easy to land when you get the feel for the correct speeds.

 

Hot Start procedure for the IO-360 in the M20E ·         Master switch on  ·         DON’T TOUCH THE THROTTLE, PROP OR MIXTURE CONTROLS. (Throttle @ ~1000 RPM Position, Mixture @ IDLE/CUTOFF, prop @ full forward) ·         Engage the starter  ·         Expect about 15-20 blades before the engine fires  ·         When the engine fires, smooth (not rapidly) move the mixture control to full rich ·         After idling, lean the mixture for smooth operation on the ground and during taxi   Flood engine start procedure for the IO-360 in the M20E ·         Master switch on  ·         Throttle, prop and mixture full forward ·         Boost pump on 3 seconds, then off ·         Mixture to IDLE/CUTOFF ·         Throttle full OPEN ·         Engage the starter  ·         Slowly pull the throttle back towards idle as the engine is turning over with the starter engaged  ·         When the throttled is reduced to about ½ to ¾ towards the idle position, the engine should fire after the throttle hits the position for the perfect fuel/air mixture for starting ·         When the engine fires, smoothly increase the mixture to full rich ·         Bring the throttle back to the normal idle speed (1000-1100RPM) ·         After idling awhile, lean the mixture for smooth operation on the ground and during taxi

[LittleTimmy]

Don't know if you have speed brakes but I use them in landing an Ovation

 

And if you have afterburners, use them on the go-around. I use them in my jet.

[carl]

Thanks all

 

 My speeds are way off. I will practice getting to 75 mph on final.

 

I will redo my starting procedure to yours Bob . 

[dcrogers11]

+1, 85 mph is a bit fast.  I'm usually no where near gross when landing as i travel mostly on business by myself with 20 gals of fuel on board arriving at my destination .  If I nail 72-74 mph across the numbers, I don't float.  Just a nice flare and let settle on its on.  But my first year and 100 hours in my C, I felt that most my landings were awful as I too was usually too fast on base.  

 

Practice, practice, practice.  Good luck.

Don

[DrBill]

Slow down more on downwind and try to hit 80 by base.  Then you'll be in shape for 70 on final.

I use Bob B's start procedure to a T  perfect starts every time.

BILL

[Bob_Belville]

For the short-body Mooney's

 

1. Gear down

 

2. 100 MPH (not knots) on downwind add first flaps and then TRIM for hands-off

 

3.  90 MPH (not knots) on base and TRIM for hands-off

 

4.  80 MPH (not knots) final approach with full flaps then TRIM FOR HANDS-OFF to maintain 80 MPH prop full forward landing . 

 

5. Reduce throttle for 75 MPH over the numbers

 

The most important of these is 80 (+/- 2) MPH (not knots) on 1/2 mile final (I am not joking about the +/- 2MPH as a maximum error) and TRIM for hands-off.  It will land itself if you keep it within +/- 2MPH on final with proper trim and reduce the throttle and gentle back pressure to bring it in for the landing.

Too fast.for an E unless you're @ about 2750#..

[lahso]

I fly a C model, but agree with DrBill that you should be at 80MPH on base, with the throttle almost closed. I keep 80MPH on final and land.

[carl]

Thanks

I think i have a clearer idea of my mistakes

[RangerJim]

A lot of excellent advice here on issues that we each have had to deal with at some point in our aviation endeavors.  A useful technique that has helped me with a variety of high wing, low wing, and tailwheel aircraft landings is the "thousand yard stare".  As you began to flare try to shift the focus of your vision down to the far end of the runway and pick up your height above the runway cues from your peripheral vision.  This helps me avoid the temptation to relax the back pressure on the yoke or, even worse, push the nose over on to the runway.

 

One day you will find that your landings seem to work out just fine with no drama, with or without flaps, and regardless of loading.  You will have a hard time remembering what all the fuss was about.

 

Hang in there.

[Shadrach]

Carl, I've copied and pasted below a post I made years ago. I still agree with myself and think it's good advice today. If you swing by my drome sometime, I'm happy to give you a ride in my F.

As others have said it seems you're just a bit too fast. If you fly final at 1.2 x Vso for th plane's approximate weight I think your problem will go away. I raise flaps as soon as the nose wheel is down. However, typically when my nose wheel is down, I cannot pick it up with elevator. Find a long runway and practice full stall, mains first, landings... It will make you more comfortable and proficient.

When I first started flying Mooneys, I was showing an instructor my technique for "greasing them on" after a FR. In my mind everything was going great as we gently kissed the pavement until he pulled the yolk back on roll out... I realized that I was flying the wheels on and not really landing the airplane. It felt smooth, but was poor technique. Full stall landings (mains first) can be equally smooth but require precise speed control. Summer thermals coming off a hot runway do not make life easier.

When a medium bodied mooney is properly landed on the mains, the nose can be held off for an additional 3 to 5 seconds or about 250 to 500ft depending on weight and CG.

Here is the formula for calculating stall speed by weight. I listed MGW and 2100lbs for comparison.

2100lbs is light but entirely common weight for me in my M20F when solo.

Vso @MGW 2740lbs = 54 knots = 62mph.

1.2 x 54KIAS=65KTAS = 75mph

1.3 x 54KIAS=70KTAS = 81mph

2100lbs =2100/2740 = 0.766. The Square root of 0.766 = 0.875

0.875 x 54KTAS= 47.25KTAS = 54mph

1.2 x 47.25 KTAS = 56.7KTAS = 65mph

1.3 x 47KTAS = 61.1KTAS = 70mph

If 1.2 x Vso feels uncomfortable, start at 1.3 and try working your way down to 1.2...you'll find what you like. 1.1 is shortfield technique, it's more advanced in terms of proficiency and feels mushy relative to what we're used to.

[Hank]

Carl,

This is all good advice. But I do it simpler:

-flaps to Takeoff no later than pattern entry, 1/2-3/4 miles out

-downwind at 90 mph

-drop gear abeam point of intended landing

-base leg at 90 mph

-roll wings level on final at 85 mph

-pitch for speed, power for altitude

-increase flaps as required to maintain desired path (I often use Full Flaps on calm days, less when it's windy)

-cross the boundary (imaginary boundary sometimes) at 75 mph only if heavy

-reduce speed by 5 mph for every 300 lbs below gross now, not at takeoff

-throttle to idle when you can glide to the runway

-flare, hold the nose up and never push forward on the yoke

-if you balloon, give a short burst of power, maintain attitude and land; then go slower next time, you were too fast

-if you float a long way, verify throttle is all the way to idle, and go slower the next time, you were too fast

As you gain experience at different weights, conditions and airports, you will improve.

Can't help you with hot starts, my C does great but is not injected.

[N201MKTurbo]

There is no need to wait till final to get your speed down. Are you running moonshine or something? You can slow down to approach speed on down wind. Then you don,t have to worry about all these speed changes. Mooneys don't slow down very well, but they speed up rather quickly, so if you get a little low and slow a little power will fix it all up, but to slow down you have to pull the power to idle and wait. When you get better at it you will be able to continuously slow down so you hit approach speed as you turn final, but why try for that now. Also the longer you fly at approach speed the more familiar you will be flying at that speed and the better your landings will be.

Also, don't worry about putting the wheels and flaps down a couple of miles out from downwind. It will give you more time to get used to flying slow and dirty.

[Shadrach]

Also, be comfortable with steep slips.  I don't use them often, but it's nice to be comfortable with them in a pinch!

[Shadrach]

Too fast.for an E unless you're @ about 2750#..

Which I'm sure it would handle just fine...

[N9405V]

I was doing the same thing you are doing. Carrying to much speed into the flare because I was uncomfortable getting slow. I went out one day and climbed up to 3500agl and practiced slow flight in the landing configuration. It is amazing how slow they will fly. Might be worth an hour or so of time.

[Bob_Belville]

Which I'm sure it would handle just fine...

So I've heard. 

[MyNameIsNobody]

Vintage Mooney ASI has 100MPH then 80MPH listed on outside of ASI where they are easily readable. Bottom of white flap range gives you 65ish...too slow for me. I keep the ASI at 80MPH coming down with power off over the fence. It works for me. I don't fly into short runways so if you are shooting for numbers...

I always enjoy reading these threads as there are varying techniques for speed in pattern and on final in a short-bodied Mooney. As shown by respondents. 80MPH is on the ASI. If I am under that with needle...I am GOOD. Over that...TOO FAST. Float on or nail it on. Have runway will travel.

[MyNameIsNobody]

Vintage Mooney ASI has 100MPH then 80MPH listed on outside of ASI where they are easily readable. Bottom of white flap range gives you 65ish...too slow for me. I keep the ASI at 80MPH coming down with power off over the fence. It works for me. I don't fly into short runways so if you are shooting for numbers...

I always enjoy reading these threads as there are varying techniques for speed in pattern and on final in a short-bodied Mooney. As shown by respondents. 80MPH is on the ASI. If I am under that with needle...I am GOOD. Over that...TOO FAST. Float on or nail it on. Have runway will travel.

There is no need to wait till final to get your speed down. Are you running moonshine or something? You can slow down to approach speed on down wind. Then you don,t have to worry about all these speed changes. Mooneys don't slow down very well, but they speed up rather quickly, so if you get a little low and slow a little power will fix it all up, but to slow down you have to pull the power to idle and wait. When you get better at it you will be able to continuously slow down so you hit approach speed as you turn final, but why try for that now. Also the longer you fly at approach speed the more familiar you will be flying at that speed and the better your landings will be.

Also, don't worry about putting the wheels and flaps down a couple of miles out from downwind. It will give you more time to get used to flying slow and dirty.

I guess I am running or something. I fly 100MPH on downwind and Base. I pump in landing flaps after base to final turn. Plenty of time to roll trim and reduce power to 80mph on final. Power off when runway made. Let it come down. Yours is a technique. It works for you. My technique works too for me and my "something". I have zero worries about speed changes. My Garmin generally audibly says "500" in my headset when I turn to final.

[MyNameIsNobody]

Yesterday I was waiting to depart for landing traffic. Two Pipers were low and dragging all the way in with power. I don't believe either would have made the runway had they lost power on final...

[Shadrach]

80mph on final is fine. 80mph over the numbers and full flaps in any short or medium bodied Mooney is float city unless your'e at gross. On a hot day with thermals coming off the runway you might see 2000ft of runway pass before it stops flying.  We have had a number of incidents with Mooneys at my drome. Some were major and some not as so major. Many, many years ago, we had a ex marine aviator that destroyed 2 props and went through 2 tear-downs before deciding to get a proper check out in what I believe was an E model. I know of an ATP that porpoised a long body into multiple prop strikes spaced ~800ft (IIRC) apart.

 

I too try to fly patterns and speeds that will allow me to make the runway if the engine fails.  However, some airports and conditions force one to accept risks that are different from everyday ops. Some folks avoid those situations and stick with large margins. Being conservative is a virtue when flying an airplane.  The question is what is conservative and when do the returns diminish to the point of increasing risk?  I don't know how do make those calls for anyone but myself.  One thing is for sure, statistically as a group, we do a far better job of depositing airplanes in the weeds off the departure end then we do failing to make the threshold.

 

I worry about engine/mx failure, but I know that the most likely system to fail and cause an accident in my or just about any other GA plane is the link between the left seat and the yoke.  

 

It's hard to use one number all of the time and expect consistent performance.  The stall speed for a Mooney can have a delta of as much as 11mph (maybe more if your a fly weight). That's not a huge amount of speed, but it's easily >1000ft of runway on a hot day.

 

I really do like to do short field work, not because it's more risky (and it certainly can be), but because if I am current, I don't have any anxiety about what the plane can do at more normal length fields (>2000ft).    

[Tommy]

There are hundreds of different ways of landing a Mooney! Instead of trying all of them - and getting hopelessly lost or mixed up!

 

Your landing does seem like needing a lot of work - kludos to you for publicly admitting that! It takes some courage! - so the best thing you can do is to find a Mooney instructor nearby and have lessons! Better still, go with at least three or more instructors! It will easily be the best money you ever spent!

 

Good luck!