Rules for backup AI location.

[DXB]

I plan on putting in an Aspen PFD in an install that keeps my ASI, turn coordinator (STEC30 install), altimeter, and VSI in a basic 6 pack around it.  My radio stack then moves to the immediate right of this configuration, and the required backup vacuum AI was going to be exiled to the right of the radio stack.  I plan to use the AHRS off the Stratus 2 / yoke ipad as my real backup, so the vacuum AI is of minimal interest to me.  

 

So I met today with the avionics guy who will likely do my new panel install this summer to review plans.  He says the regs for IFR cert don't let me have the AI so far away.  He suggested instead dumping my VSI and putting the AI in its place.  I'm rather fond of my VSI, and I hear the VSI on the Aspen isn't the best.  Does anyone know about how far the AI can be from ones line of sight?  Any other suggestions?

 

I'm reading part 23 for the info but haven't found it - at least it's helping me get to sleep.

[Marauder]

I agree with your avionics shop. Dump the VSI, the graphical VSI on the Aspen isn't the greatest but you also get a numerical output. I think the reg says it needs to be within 16" of pilot sight line. You can't have it to the right of the radio stack.

Here is my setup:

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[Marauder]

And a close up of the VSI output (to the right and right corner of the HSI). It won't take long and you won't miss the VSI.

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[Dave Marten]

14CFR23.1311 thru .1321 it provides good guidance. BL: Minimize head/eye movement.

I would not move the radio stack any further left. Reason being is that I would not want the right half of the yoke to interfere with my ability to program the nav/comms. You don't want to reach around the yoke to access the radios. No further left than the throttle.

Rant: the stratus/iPad is NOT a backup attitude indicator! Good for situational awareness, but that is the limit. If you ever did get into an unusual attitude expect your stratus will end up on the cabin floor. CFI hint: if you ever do hood work with me and i see your diligently fiddling with your iPad synthetic vision while your cross check suffers you can bet I'll "adjust" the attitude of the stratus in the middle of a procedure turn and smile.

Here is a sweet Aspen panel on a vintage mooney with sound instrument positioning.

[donkaye]

Just my opinion, but I really don't like the VSI on the Aspen.  It won't display until there is some movement greater than 100 ft/min, then it will come and go when near level.  I have found the VSi to be one of the more useful instruments in the cockpit when used in conjunction with the altimeter.  It's easy to fine tune the altitude with it, for example when climbing to or descending to an altitude.  It makes level off easy.  Even on the G500 the VSI representation isn't that good in that it is not damped enough to my liking.  So, if you can keep it, so much the better.

[Piloto]

Just my opinion, but I really don't like the VSI on the Aspen.  It won't display until there is some movement greater than 100 ft/min, then it will come and go when near level.  I have found the VSi to be one of the more useful instruments in the cockpit when used in conjunction with the altimeter.  It's easy to fine tune the altitude with it, for example when climbing to or descending to an altitude.  It makes level off easy.  Even on the G500 the VSI representation isn't that good in that it is not damped enough to my liking.  So, if you can keep it, so much the better.

+1 The VSI is a very useful instrument in assessing your climb performance on take off. For GPS guided descents is a must to maintain the vertical speed required (VSR)indicated by the GPS. This keeps you from arriving too high at the approach and then needing to dive to be on the G/S.

José

[Bob_Belville]

I'm with Marauder. Aspen has specific requirements. You'll get over the loss of the VSI.

http://mooneyspace.com/gallery/image/35132-img-20130720-122923-560/

[Danb]

Adding to Dons even though the vsi has some shortcomings on the units from aspen and Garmin ...the trend lines are useful in my flying always some sort of trade off once one has become accustomed to using the trend lines for various items on the Garmin they add extra awareness in the use of all that tech

[Marauder]

Adding to Dons even though the vsi has some shortcomings on the units from aspen and Garmin ...the trend lines are useful in my flying always some sort of trade off once one has become accustomed to using the trend lines for various items on the Garmin they add extra awareness in the use of all that tech

Where I found the value of the old mechanical VSI was the first little blip of movement before the altimeter began moving or I noticed it on the AI. It was always the precursor to what I saw on the AI.

I think what is different is that the AI on the Aspens are much more sensitive than my mechanical AI and I see the altitude excursion much sooner and before the initial VSI blip.

That make sense or did I dream that up?

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[DXB]

Thanks for all the input- sounds like varied opinion from experienced Aspen users on whether to keep or ditch the old VSI.  There is quite a bit of room to move the radio stack to the left before it interferes with the yoke, and it makes sense to me to move things that are used constantly as close as possible.  But this means ditching the VSI.  Can't say I looked at the VSI much in primary training, but learning to plan my descents carefully during the Mooney transition got me rather attached to it.  I include two panel options below (with and without VSI), plus a panel of a friend who has moved his radio stack to the left, showing this to be a workable setup. In contrast to his setup, I do really want the JPI 900 monitor close by on the far left- I really dislike how far away the engine gauges are in the stock install.

 

The vacuum driven backup AI will be the dinosaur in this otherwise modern panel unfortunately.  I would love to tear out the vacuum pump, but the panel mount electronic backup AI options don't seem worth it until the regs catch up to make them cheaper, particularly as there are perfectly reliable and cheap non-panel mount AIs available as a real backup.  For less than the cost of a battery replacement on a certified panel mount unit, I can keep the vacuum pump running for now. Hopefully the regs will change before my old AI needs overhaul.  

 

 

[Bob_Belville]

My $0.02:

 

• I'm very dubious that the structure behind the panel face will permit that left side location for the JPI.
• And I would think the bu nav head needs to be on the left side of the panel. Hand flying a precision approach with the indicator off to the right is going to be challenging.
• The JPI display is so large and so readable and the Mooney panel is not so wide but what having the EDM on the right is really fine. If the JPI is primary you'll have a RAD above the Aspen which will display tach/map and alarms.
• The EDM is not much about take off and landing. It's mainly about monitoring temps in climb and leaning and monitoring in cruise. The left side of your panel should be primarily aviating.  

But it's your privy.

[midlifeflyer]

Rant: the stratus/iPad is NOT a backup attitude indicator! 

 

Gosh! I sure hope you don't have to rant about that!

[Marauder]

Just to make the total 4 cents... the JPI 900 will have a RAD (a remote indicator that will flash when a temp is out of limits). This will give you some flexibility to where you mount this unit. The JPI is also very readable, even from a little bit of distance. If you moved it to the right side of the panel, you could also angle mount it a little.

 

There are a number configurations and I would play around with different ones with the modeling tool. It gets pretty expensive afterwards to move stuff...

[DXB]

Great input guys- the kind of feedback I want before I write an uncomfortably large check.  The person I'm working with did seem to be able to do a left-sided JPI install, but I do see your point- most of the JPI functions belong further away.  It's really just the power settings that I find too attention-diverting right now with the old analog gauges- this is what made me want to put it on the left. The RAD addresses this issue and also makes room to have the AI close and keep the VSI for now.  Modified layout attached, and I welcome any further critique.  Agree placing the nav2 CDI to the right of the radio stack is suboptimal, but it's really just a backup to the HSI on the Aspen?  Maybe if I get used to using the Aspen VSI, the nav2 CDI can move left replace the old VSI without much expense.

 

  

[donkaye]

I couldn't be happier to have my engine monitor on the left.  I can't say how useful it is for me over there.  It is especially useful because I have so many other functions on it, like a backup to the gear annunciator.  There are also so many different ways to view and manage the engine monitor functions that are nice to be a finger touch away.  Although it is a more expensive monitor, for me the MVP-50 is the best engine monitor out there.

[Bob_Belville]

Great input guys- the kind of feedback I want before I write an uncomfortably large check.  The person I'm working with did seem to be able to do a left-sided JPI install, but I do see your point- most of the JPI functions belong further away.  It's really just the power settings that I find too attention-diverting right now with the old analog gauges- this is what made me want to put it on the left. The RAD addresses this issue and also makes room to have the AI close and keep the VSI for now.  Modified layout attached, and I welcome any further critique.  Agree placing the nav2 CDI to the right of the radio stack is suboptimal, but it's really just a backup to the HSI on the Aspen?  Maybe if I get used to using the Aspen VSI, the nav2 CDI can move left replace the old VSI without much expense.

 

  Panel design2.jpg

Your install may tell you that Aspen requires the AI to be in the standard 6 pack. (The Aspen counts as 2 of the 6.) 

 

Don has to have his small footprint EDM close by since, unlike the JPI, the EI box has multiple pages to navigate. 

[FoxMike]

I do not know what the rules are but look at a factory G1000 install, the AI is located next to the cabin door.  I think that is a terrible location but that is how Mooney did it.  I would suggest that you locate a backup AI near the Aspen.  If you need to use it, it ought be be in your primary scan.

[Marauder]

I do not know what the rules are but look at a factory G1000 install, the AI is located next to the cabin door. I think that is a terrible location but that is how Mooney did it. I would suggest that you locate a backup AI near the Aspen. If you need to use it, it ought be be in your primary scan.

Let's spend some more of his money. I would drop the second CDI and buy a second Aspen. That way you can have 3 AIs all at once!

And a couple of HSIs too!

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[Danb]

Mike you said it all..very difficult to use on the far right..

[Bennett]

I'm happy with this setup. I kept the Lifesaver back up AI to the left side, and the JPI 830 towards the center stack.

[Hank]

Dev--

I like Original Option #2. Like you, I really like and use my VSI (but then again, it's an even more useful IVSI). Bob seems to like the digital VSI thingy on the Aspen, but I much, much prefer having hands to glance at rather than numbers that must be looked at longer to see, recognize and determine if it's the right number or not. On all of the fancy glass panels, there are numbers for airspeed, altitude, heading and vertical speed.

Don't believe me? Glance at your watch, then look at a digital clock, and see which one takes longer to tell the time.

Give me hands, not numbers of any size. Being nearsighted and wearing glasses for distance, I'd have to lift my glasses to read the many numbers on the Aspen, so I'm not spending the money anyway. But it's fun helping you spend yours.

[Marauder]

Dev--

I like Original Option #2. Like you, I really like and use my VSI (but then again, it's an even more useful IVSI). Bob seems to like the digital VSI thingy on the Aspen, but I much, much prefer having hands to glance at rather than numbers that must be looked at longer to see, recognize and determine if it's the right number or not. On all of the fancy glass panels, there are numbers for airspeed, altitude, heading and vertical speed.

Don't believe me? Glance at your watch, then look at a digital clock, and see which one takes longer to tell the time.

Give me hands, not numbers of any size. Being nearsighted and wearing glasses for distance, I'd have to lift my glasses to read the many numbers on the Aspen, so I'm not spending the money anyway. But it's fun helping you spend yours.

Jeepers Hank, you're starting to sound like Peter Garmin! Next thing you will be doing is starting to talk about fine Swiss watches.

Quite honestly, until 2012 I flew behind nothing but an analog VSI. Transitioning to a glass version (digital) was easy and I don't miss my mechanical VSI. I actually like the numeric display of the actual FPM climb or descent shown on the Aspen. I really don't use the graphical display of the VSI on the Aspen. Just show me the number!

When I fly a precision approach, I find seeing an exact descent FPM represented as a numerical value makes it easier for me to adjust my descent if I am above or below the glideslope.

It's whatever works for you...

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[carusoam]

Chris,

With the digital presentation of the VS, is it of the lag-free GPS variety, or air pressure calibrated-leaky-delayed variety?

I like the Swiss watches that I have. But, I look forward to the digital revolution when it comes to town.

Best regards,

-a-

[Marauder]

Chris,

With the digital presentation of the VS, is it of the lag-free GPS variety, or air pressure calibrated-leaky-delayed variety?

I like the Swiss watches that I have. But, I look forward to the digital revolution when it comes to town.

Best regards,

-a-

Good question Anthony. It does not show immediately and only displays when 100 FPM or more is detected.

2.3.4.8. Vertical Speed Indicator (VSI)Whenever the vertical speed exceeds +/- 100 feet per minute (fpm), the vertical speed is indicated by a rising/sinking white vertical tape and associated scale markers immediately to the right of the compass rose

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[DXB]

Chris,

With the digital presentation of the VS, is it of the lag-free GPS variety, or air pressure calibrated-leaky-delayed variety?

I like the Swiss watches that I have. But, I look forward to the digital revolution when it comes to town.

Best regards,

-a-

I had assumed the Aspen just calculates from its digitized pressure altitude, not GPS altitude, and then filters out calculated values <100 to keep it from being too twitchy?  In principle this would seem more accurate and responsive than a regular VSI or even an IVSI, but then also give up a bit of redundancy by making it subject to malfunction in the pressure altimeter.