DXB Posted March 25, 2015 Report Share Posted March 25, 2015 I've spent months considering how to upgrade my technology-deficient panel to get the best situational awareness bang for my buck, as well as get ADS-b compliance over with. I'd settled on: (1) a Garmin GTN650 (2) trading in my geriatric Bendix KT76A transponder for the inexpensive, plug and play KT74 for ADS-b out (3) using the Stratus 2 with ForeFlight for traffic and weather. It makes sense for me to stay with ForeFlight, as this is what I've gotten somewhat adept at using as a newbie pilot. I could instead get a Garmin GDL88 to put traffic and weather on the GTN650, but the added expense for this info on the small screen doesn't seem worth it, and I don't really have the panel space or budget for a large MFD in my '68C. So I figure let the ipad do some of the work. BUT then I see this: https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/in-the-air/avionics-safety/sat-comm/flight-stream-110-210/prod153681.html For 0.5-1amu, you can transfer nav data from your ipad to the GTN650. Sounds awesome, particularly as I hope to start instrument training soon. I'm guessing this kind of ipad integration is the future. But the catch right now is that you have to use Garmin Pilot instead of ForeFlight. Ok, so maybe I'll suck it up and learn to use the other app and also get a Garmin GDL39 instead of the Stratus for ADS-b in. The problem is, Garmin Pilot is not nearly as loved as Foreflight, with the strong negative opinions encapsulated here: http://flythewing.com/308/Blog/Entries/2015/1/12_Garmin_Must_Buy_ForeFlight.html How are others with finite budgets and scant panel space working through these issues? Will there be ForeFlight-Garmin integration soon, and I should do my original install plan? Should I switch to Garmin Pilot? Should I wait a bit longer to let the Foreflight vs Garmin market shake out? My parents went with Sony BetaMax in the late 70's, and I don't want to repeat their mistakes... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan M20E '66 Posted March 25, 2015 Report Share Posted March 25, 2015 I've been contemplating an avionics upgrade as well on my '66 M20E. The GTN650 is nice, but figure on spending $13k or more installed for that alone. And it's a tiny MFD. Add at least another $3k - 4K for an installed KT74 (or similar like AXP340), and you still don't have ADSB-in. I'm having a tough time reconciling this kind of spending on a plane that's worth about $40k. The recently announced Freeflight Rangr FDL-978-XVRL caught my attention. At $3695 (without installation) it provides ADSB in and out, a WAAS GPS receiver, control head, install kit, and Wi-Fi for your tablet. As far as I can tell, I'm only giving up GPS ILS approaches compared to the GTN (although there's probably a way around that) and I'll have a much nicer MFD in the iPad. That would free up funds for something really important like one of the newfangled engine monitors from EI or JPI. Thoughts from the community? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted March 25, 2015 Report Share Posted March 25, 2015 I don't have a scant panel but have the same issue. You left out one little detail with the Flightstream 210. You need to buy a GDL-88 or -84 to work with it. I like your ADS-B solution. With the KT-74 transponder you will get an "in" on the iPad regardless of which portable you use. My complaint is that the Garmin stuff won't talk to the Aspen stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted March 25, 2015 Report Share Posted March 25, 2015 I've been contemplating an avionics upgrade as well on my '66 M20E. The GTN650 is nice, but figure on spending $13k or more installed for that alone. And it's a tiny MFD. Add at least another $3k - 4K for an installed KT74 (or similar like AXP340), and you still don't have ADSB-in. I'm having a tough time reconciling this kind of spending on a plane that's worth about $40k. The recently announced Freeflight Rangr FDL-978-XVRL caught my attention. At $3695 (without installation) it provides ADSB in and out, a WAAS GPS receiver, control head, install kit, and Wi-Fi for your tablet. As far as I can tell, I'm only giving up GPS ILS approaches compared to the GTN (although there's probably a way around that) and I'll have a much nicer MFD in the iPad. That would free up funds for something really important like one of the newfangled engine monitors from EI or JPI. Thoughts from the community? The FreeFlight wouldn't be a bad solution if you already had a GPS and wanted the in/out capability. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry 5TJ Posted March 25, 2015 Report Share Posted March 25, 2015 How are others with finite budgets and scant panel space working through these issues? Will there be ForeFlight-Garmin integration soon, and I should do my original install plan? Should I switch to Garmin Pilot? Should I wait a bit longer to let the Foreflight vs Garmin market shake out? My parents went with Sony BetaMax in the late 70's, and I don't want to repeat their mistakes... I elected to go with a 530W two years ago, with an Aera 560 on the pilot's yoke as the "second GPS," The Aera 560 also has the XM converter/antenna so it can display subscription weather products. I got a GTX327 to replace two ailing tube-type transponders. My plan is to add a GTX330ES (and keep the GTX327) and wire it to the WAAS 530 for ADS-B out. Like you, I have the iPad running ForeFlight as a parallel/backup system with a Stratus2 giving ADS-B in and secondary 'gyro' backup. There is not a lot of room on the panel in 60's Mooney birds but I wanted one decent size display for wx, traffic, terrain and etc. Don't forget the hidden part of an avionics upgrade: I stripped out all the radio wiring and started over with a new harness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PTK Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 ...My complaint is that the Garmin stuff won't talk to the Aspen stuff... Something tells me I should be getting the pop corn popping right about now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rainman Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 I flew in my friends plane today, and he has the Stratus II...that seems to be the best situational awareness bang for the buck with ADSB weather, traffic, etc. he was running Foreflight on his IPad ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DXB Posted March 26, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 I don't have a scant panel but have the same issue. You left out one little detail with the Flightstream 210. You need to buy a GDL-88 or -84 to work with it. I like your ADS-B solution. With the KT-74 transponder you will get an "in" on the iPad regardless of which portable you use. My complaint is that the Garmin stuff won't talk to the Aspen stuff. To get traffic/weather from the panel to the ipad using the Flightstream 210, you do need the GDL88, or you can get this off a much cheaper GDL39 also. But if I'm reading the Garmin website correctly, the Flightstream 210 will let you sync flight plan/routing between Garmin Pilot on the ipad and the GTN, even if you dont have the GDL88. This is the feature that I really covet hard and am willing to pay for it - the ipad is here to stay, and I suspect it will become routine to synch to a panel-mounted GPS in the coming years. No reason to be entering stuff both places, but right now you have to use Garmin pilot for the Flightstream, which is too inferior to the ForeFlight I've grown used to. So I'm not getting the Flightstream now and will put in later if Garmin develops the Foreflight software interface for it. Maybe they will listen... I did think about not even having a certified, panel mounted GPS, but I want a modern IFR setup to use for my training as well as redundancy beyond the ipad, so I feel obligated to get the GTN650. The cost differential with a used 430W install isn't big enough to make me go with the older generation, and Garmin unfortunately seems to have no serious competitors in this arena. If they did, they would be much more open to ForeFlight integration over doubling down on their inferior ipad software. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DXB Posted March 26, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 I've been contemplating an avionics upgrade as well on my '66 M20E. The GTN650 is nice, but figure on spending $13k or more installed for that alone. And it's a tiny MFD. Add at least another $3k - 4K for an installed KT74 (or similar like AXP340), and you still don't have ADSB-in. I'm having a tough time reconciling this kind of spending on a plane that's worth about $40k. Yeah the KT74 isn't a clear winner unless you are replacing an old KT76A-C. In that case, it plugs directly into the old tray/harness, plus gets one extra connection to the panel GPS, so low install cost. The hardware cost is around $2200 after $300 trade-in- much cheaper than other new transponders with ADS-b out. I'm fine with getting traffic/weather on a yoke-mounted Ipad via the Stratus and not having it on the panel, which has no room for a large MFD screen anyway. I share your reservation with putting this much money into an old plane. I guess if I can get 20 years good use out of it, I'll extract the value, and at that point it would be worthless irrespective of the plane where it's installed. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandelay Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 Before we start bashing Garmin for not working with other vendors remember Foreflight & Stratus only work with each other as well, this is SOP for technology companies 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 Before we start bashing Garmin for not working with other vendors remember Foreflight & Stratus only work with each other as well, this is SOP for technology companies Unfortunately this is true for a good portion of this industry. There is no forcing of industry standards and because of that, manufacturers can either build out their whole suite of products or selectively work with others that will work with them. Garmin NAV output works with Aspen, but their ADS-B solution does not. Aspen's MFD will connect to ForeFlight but not Garmin Pilot and using Connext can download a Flightplan to a GNS 430/530 but not the GTN series FreeFlight ADS-B will work with Aspen, but you need to buy the software interface from Aspen. But neither will work with Garmin. The list goes on and on and on... Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy95W Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 I've used both Foreflight and Garmin Pilot and liked them both. The original Pilot was crap, but they realized it early on and fixed it nicely. One nice thing is that they each feed off each other. A good idea on Foreflight tends to show up a few months later on Garmin Pilot and vice versa. I am using Garmin Pilot now and like it. I like that the "buttonology" matches my portable Garmin Aera (and the GTN I'll eventually get). The GDL-39 inputs to the Aera so that is what sold it to me. I think the Connext feature makes it a no brainer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_elliott Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 Before we start bashing Garmin for not working with other vendors remember Foreflight & Stratus only work with each other as well, this is SOP for technology companies no longer true, Stratus II now will work with FLYQ. Who broke what "proprietary" stream I don't know, but this is a good thing for us low life pilot consumers, regardless of what Garmin says is good for us. IBM tried this same caca with their micro channel architecture, and that didn't work out so well for the leaders of the PC world at that time, RIP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandelay Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 no longer true, Stratus II now will work with FLYQ. Who broke what "proprietary" stream I don't know, but this is a good thing for us low life pilot consumers, regardless of what Garmin says is good for us. IBM tried this same caca with their micro channel architecture, and that didn't work out so well for the leaders of the PC world at that time, RIP. With IBM the cat was already out of the bag, too late, Garmin would be stupid to help a competitor. Unless you can convince them they'll make more $ with an open interface (fat chance), I expect FF to be reverse engineering as we type. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DXB Posted March 26, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 Not really trying to bash Garmin per se, just finding that the current market makes certain avionics decisions frustrating and risky at the moment. Certainly the market will loosen up over time to offer more ipad integration across vendors (e.g. the Stratus-FLYQ example above), and probably for not much money, as these are mainly software solutions. I'm just scared of overcommitment to the high cost panel mount devices (GTN650), lest Garmin keeps the barriers up too long and they get beat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N6327Q Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 If the Part 23 rewrite ever happens, (on knees with hands making prayer sign) I am going to go out and give all my hard earned money to Dynon for the Skyview Touch! In the meantime I am going to TRY to wait to see what happens with money burning a hole in my pocket!!! P.S. keyword = TRY Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M016576 Posted March 28, 2015 Report Share Posted March 28, 2015 Before we start bashing Garmin for not working with other vendors remember Foreflight & Stratus only work with each other as well, this is SOP for technology companies This is no longer true: stratus works with FlyQ EFB now too. I ops checked it this week- the synthetic vision, ex and traffic all work nicely with FlyQ + a Stratus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DXB Posted March 30, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 If the Part 23 rewrite ever happens, (on knees with hands making prayer sign) I am going to go out and give all my hard earned money to Dynon for the Skyview Touch! In the meantime I am going to TRY to wait to see what happens with money burning a hole in my pocket!!! P.S. keyword = TRY I certainly share your wish, but my panel is pretty sketchy right now so i may bite the bullet in a couple of months. Unless someone in the know wants to correct me here, Part 23 rewrite sadly seems more like years rather than months away.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PTK Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 ...There is no forcing of industry standards and because of that, manufacturers can either build out their whole suite of products or selectively work with others that will work with them. Nor should there be any type of "forcing." The free market titrates just the right amount of force beautifully. No more and no less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob - S50 Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 You may like the idea of Flight Stream allowing you to upload your flight plan from your iPad to the GTN, but for me personally, it isn't worth the money. After I start the engine, I usually set there several minutes (leaned out) waiting for the oil temperature to come up to 90F before I taxi. That usually gives me plenty of time to program the fuel quantity into the JPI and the route into the GTN. The only exception would be on a multi-leg day. I could then program the iPad, (android in my case), start up, upload, and go. However, even so, it only takes a minute or so to program the GTN. To each his own. Bob 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandelay Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 Here in Florida you don't want to sit very long. Oil temp reaches 90F before the avionics have completed booting, cabin temps soon after Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 You may like the idea of Flight Stream allowing you to upload your flight plan from your iPad to the GTN, but for me personally, it isn't worth the money. After I start the engine, I usually set there several minutes (leaned out) waiting for the oil temperature to come up to 90F before I taxi. That usually gives me plenty of time to program the fuel quantity into the JPI and the route into the GTN. The only exception would be on a multi-leg day. I could then program the iPad, (android in my case), start up, upload, and go. However, even so, it only takes a minute or so to program the GTN. To each his own. Bob The real advantage of the Flightstream is for those of us with the 650 or 430 series. I agree loading up on the ground is easy. The real fun begins in the northeast with that "I have a new routing for you, advise when ready to copy". With the ability to use Garmin Pilot as the modification point for the flight plan, it makes it easier to do that in flight. That said, is it worth $1,000 plus installation? https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/in-the-air/avionics-safety/sat-comm/flight-stream-110-210/prod153681.html Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 GTN has a 'keyboard' - easy to type in a route, better if it is a Victor airway... 430 has the 'dual knob, twist a single letter through the entire alphabet debacle'... Worth it if you have a 430....? Easier to afford if you have a GTN....? Really easier if you are installing a GTN at the moment....? My thoughts, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandelay Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 GTN has a 'keyboard' - easy to type in a route, better if it is a Victor airway... 430 has the 'dual knob, twist a single letter through the entire alphabet debacle'... Worth it if you have a 430....? Easier to afford if you have a GTN....? Really easier if you are installing a GTN at the moment....? My thoughts, -a- GTN650 requires 2 pushes per letter, unless letter is near previous Flightstream 210 displays ADSB traffic and weather on big screen of your iPad Without GDL88, the 210 has limited functionality Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 GTN has a 'keyboard' - easy to type in a route, better if it is a Victor airway... 430 has the 'dual knob, twist a single letter through the entire alphabet debacle'... Worth it if you have a 430....? Easier to afford if you have a GTN....? Really easier if you are installing a GTN at the moment....? My thoughts, -a- My GTN is easier to use than the GNS but when you get a significant re-route, either can be a pain in the butt. As an example: I usually get this; But have gotten this; But most of the time I get to fly this: Really easy to enter on the iPad. Just usually isn't this extreme. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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