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Instrument / Equipment required for Private IFR flight?


Tommy

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I think we the Aussie should have done what the Kiwi had done in the past. Simply adopting FAA rules and regulations en bloc without modifications. Would've made it so much cheaper for the government and easier for the pilots. Local flight schools will also be more competitive internationally.

 

This ADS-B business is a farce. No In capability (weather / FIS etc)  No WAAS and a complete package + installation will certainly be 35-50% more expensive than getting it done in US (especially with falling Aussie dollar)

 

Last few weeks I had been flying into Archerfield (one of the largest GA airports in Australia) and I could count the GA aircrafts with my fingers! To be fair, quite a few were damaged after TWO massive storms swept across Brisbane last month. But with ADS-B mandate, many owners are taking the money instead of getting it replaced or repaired.

 

It really is the beginning of the end...

I quite agree Tom....however there is a fundamental difference in regulatory approach between the Aussie and the US (or the Kiwis, or he Brits for that matter)....and actually this approach extends well beyond just aviation....the Australians feel that they cannot allow any discretion or room for interpretation of any regulation and so they are necessarily far more complex and formulaic and try to cover every eventuality to tell you what is and isn't allowed....and then because they feel they have covered all possibilities there can be no excuses for failing to comply...hence the strict liability....and just to be really clear they include the explicit penalty in the reg itself....for example, for we would say you shall have a rotating beacon or strobe for night flight....you would say "and it must be working, and if not here is the penalty (whether you kne it wasn't working or not..lie Strict Liability).....so simply photocopying the FARs would not be satisfactory for the Australian regulator....in the US, NZ or UK in general if there is no law to say you can't, then you can.....this is an anathema to the Aussies...unfortunately as I am 6th gen Aussie and it makes me sick to see it turn into such a police state....

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My J has got pretty much factory original avionics including

 

One AH/HSI/ADF/VOR/GS/KFC200/Alt Static/2 radios/Mode-C transponder

 

Do I need anything else or replace the GPS for IFR training?

There is no requirement for a GPS to fly IFR.  I did it for 20 years on the DC9.

 

Assuming your plane meets all the other requirements, you should be good to go.  With no DME you will be limited to VOR, ILS, LOC, ADF, PAR, and ASR approaches.  If you see approaches that say something like VOR/DME 17, look and see if there is a note that says "DME or Radar Required".  If there is, you can fly those too but you'll need to let ATC know you'll need radar identification of those fixes that are identified using DME.

 

Bob

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Title says it all :)

 

Thanks guys!

 

You might look at this a different way and I am posting this not knowing what goes on in Oz.

 

Here in Wonderland we have an IFR certification requirement every two years (and I am blabbing off memory so someone will chime in with the specifics) and at that point you could ask your maintenance folks if all is copacetic for IFR flight. At that point, you survey what you have and that will tell you when and where you can fly.

 

For TO you need the TO procedures, if any, and the ability to contact ATC at some point. I say some point because if you are in the outback (Oz or Wonderland, doesn't much matter), you may not get "radar contact" for a while.

 

For enroute you need the nav necessary for enroute nav. Yes, that is a bit ambiguous but it could be just an enroute GPS, or a VOR receiver.

 

Now comes the fun part and the literally myriad of options designed to DRIVE YOU NUTS! For approach you need the equipment necessary to execute the approach. Here in Wonderland the Feds Against Aviation are slowly driving all pilots towards WAAS GPS in order to land anywhere, so the choice is fairly easy. Either have a WAAS GPS and fly wherever you want, or stay home.

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 If you see approaches that say something like VOR/DME 17, look and see if there is a note that says "DME or Radar Required".  If there is, you can fly those too but you'll need to let ATC know you'll need radar identification of those fixes that are identified using DME.

 

Bob

If the approach is titled VOR/DME, you must have DME (or GPS to substitute).  At least in the US and we tend to be looser on this kind of stuff than other countries.

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If the approach is titled VOR/DME, you must have DME (or GPS to substitute).  At least in the US and we tend to be looser on this kind of stuff than other countries.

 

and, to be pedantic, if you are going to use GPS in lieu of DME, the unit must be certified for terminal operations and the approach must be loaded into the unit.

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and, to be pedantic, if you are going to use GPS in lieu of DME, the unit must be certified for terminal operations and the approach must be loaded into the unit.

 

Are you sure about that?  There are approach certified GPS units such as the KLN89B that have no capability to load any non-GPS approaches.  Can you point to an FAR or an AC that states this limitation?  I don't see anything in AC 90-108 http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/advisory_circulars/index.cfm/go/document.information/documentid/946030

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It doesn't matter if you're doing a GPS approach or not. You can only use the GPS as a required part of the approach portion of a flight if it is used in this manner:

AIM 1-1-18:
 

b. Operational Use of GPS. 

3. Oceanic, Domestic, En Route, and Terminal Area Operations

 

( c ) GPS IFR approach/departure operations can be conducted when approved avionics systems are installed and the following requirements are met:

(1) The aircraft is TSO-C145() or TSO-C146() or TSO-C196() or TSO-C129() in Class A1, B1, B3, C1, or C3; and

(2) The approach/departure must be retrievable from the current airborne navigation database in the navigation computer. The system must be able to retrieve the procedure by name from the aircraft navigation database. Manual entry of waypoints using latitude/longitude or place/bearing is not permitted for approach procedures.

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it also says it (slightly differently) in AC 90-108 (beginning @ bottom of page 5):

 

 

9. OPERATING REQUIREMENTS AND CONSIDERATIONS. 

c. Operating Requirements. 

(1) For the purposes described in this AC, pilots may not manually enter published procedure or route waypoints via latitude/longitude, place/bearing, or place/bearing/distance into the aircraft system.

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It doesn't matter if you're doing a GPS approach or not. You can only use the GPS as a required part of the approach portion of a flight if it is used in this manner:

AIM 1-1-18:

 

b. Operational Use of GPS. 

3. Oceanic, Domestic, En Route, and Terminal Area Operations

 

( c ) GPS IFR approach/departure operations can be conducted when approved avionics systems are installed and the following requirements are met:

(1) The aircraft is TSO-C145() or TSO-C146() or TSO-C196() or TSO-C129() in Class A1, B1, B3, C1, or C3; and

(2) The approach/departure must be retrievable from the current airborne navigation database in the navigation computer. The system must be able to retrieve the procedure by name from the aircraft navigation database. Manual entry of waypoints using latitude/longitude or place/bearing is not permitted for approach procedures.

 

I believe that only applies to actual GPS approaches, not for using the GPS in lieu of other required equipment.

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it also says it (slightly differently) in AC 90-108 (beginning @ bottom of page 5):

 

 

9. OPERATING REQUIREMENTS AND CONSIDERATIONS. 

c. Operating Requirements. 

(1) For the purposes described in this AC, pilots may not manually enter published procedure or route waypoints via latitude/longitude, place/bearing, or place/bearing/distance into the aircraft system.

 

I think you misread this. In this sentence the word "procedure" is singular so the word "waypoints" applies to both "route" and "procedure". So, it effectively says you may not enter procedure waypoints, not procedures.

 

Also, this only says the waypoints/fixes can't be entered manually based upon coordinates. As long as the fix of interest is in the database you can use it.

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where does it say that?

 

It implies it because you are not doing a GPS approach operation.  You are doing an ILS approach operation using the GPS for secondary information.

 

Here's some good information from AOPA:

http://www.aopa.org/Advocacy/Air-Traffic-Services-,-a-,-Technology/Air-Traffic-Services-Brief-Use-of-GPS-in-lieu-of-DME-ADF

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From the AOPA link:

 

Requirements

 

As with most operational capabilities, there are minimum requirements that must be met in order to take advantage of their benefits in a safe manner. When using GPS in lieu of DME and ADF for the purposes stated above:

 

* The DME, ADF, or intersection names or identifiers must be retrieved from the database, and pilots must ensure that data is current in accordance with the aircraft flight manual supplement or approved operations manual.

 

 

If you look at an an approach plate, you will see that every DME-based waypoint has a fix name. As per above, you can only use the fix name, as specified above, not the distance from the DME GPS database waypoint.

For example, the SFO ILS 28L, HEMAN INT corresponds to I-SFO 12 DME. You cannot use the distance from the I-SFO DME navaid on the GPS, you have to use HEMAN.

 

SFO ILS 28L:  http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1503/00375IL28L.PDF

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From the AOPA link:

If you look at an an approach plate, you will see that every DME-based waypoint has a fix name. As per above, you can only use the fix name, as specified above, not the distance from the DME GPS database waypoint.

For example, the SFO ILS 28L, HEMAN INT corresponds to I-SFO 12 DME. You cannot use the distance from the I-SFO DME navaid on the GPS, you have to use HEMAN.

SFO ILS 28L: http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1503/00375IL28L.PDF

Right, the fix has to come from the database. The approach procedure does not have to be loaded in order to load the fix. A simple "direct to" followed by entering the fix identifier will load the fix from the database and then you may use the distance information provided by your GPS in lieu of DME-based distance.

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so OK, I have to load HEMAN from the database. that means I also have to load DIVEC, PONKE, WETOR, ROKME, DUYET, and NEPIC in order to fly the approach. what have I just done? i've just hand-entered the approach (hopefully in the right order) into the GPS. this is one practical reason you have to load the procedure.
 

the second practical reason is that there are many DME fixes which are not unique in the database, and can ONLY be loaded with the procedure. For example, the TCY VOR/DME RWY 26 approach has a MAP DME fix called RW12, which is 23.1DME from MOD. You cannot identify the MAP using GPS in lieu of DME without loading the whole procedure.

 

TCY VOR/DME RWY 26: http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1503/05815VD26.PDF

 

and GGW RNAV (GPS) RWY 12: also has a RW12 fix:  http://www.globalair.com/dtpp/globalair_05382r12.pdf

 

so you can take the position (which I disagree with) that reg-wise, you don't have to load the procedure. but how would you fly GPS-in-lieu-of-DME in these two situations without doing do?

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so OK, I have to load HEMAN from the database. that means I also have to load DIVEC, PONKE, WETOR, ROKME, DUYET, and NEPIC in order to fly the approach. what have I just done? i've just hand-entered the approach (hopefully in the right order) into the GPS. this is one practical reason you have to load the procedure.

 

the second practical reason is that there are many DME fixes which are not unique in the database, and can ONLY be loaded with the procedure. For example, the TCY VOR/DME RWY 26 approach has a MAP DME fix called RW12, which is 23.1DME from MOD. You cannot identify the MAP using GPS in lieu of DME without loading the whole procedure.

 

TCY VOR/DME RWY 26: http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1503/05815VD26.PDF

 

and GGW RNAV (GPS) RWY 12: also has a RW12 fix:  http://www.globalair.com/dtpp/globalair_05382r12.pdf

 

so you can take the position (which I disagree with) that reg-wise, you don't have to load the procedure. but how would you fly GPS-in-lieu-of-DME in these two situations without doing do?

 

Well, your last example is a GPS RNAV approach so in that case you would have to load it, but that's not what we were talking about.  In the 26 approach I don't see a RW12 fix.  I suspect that is just the next waypoint that your GPS loads to help you sequence.  I do see ZADBA which I can load as a waypoint.

 

I agree that in some cases it is not practical and probably not a good idea.  However, in other cases you just need your GPS in lieu of an ADF to identify the LOM http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1503/05958IL4.PDF In those cases you are not required to load the procedure.  You may simply load the identifier and navigate accordingly.

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As far as the SFO ILS example I think the AOPA discussion covers this:

 

"Caution: Pilots should be extremely careful to ensure that correct distance measurements are used when utilizing this interim method. It is strongly recommended that pilots review distances for stepdown points during preflight preparation. (See Figure B; a GPS receiver set to the FAF, AASON, would be counting up to 8.1 at the missed approach point, where as a DME would have counted down to 0.9 at this same missed approach point.)"

 

The approach in question is the LDA/DME 23 at KEKO (http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1503/00129LDAD23.PDF).  You can see that AASON is analogous to HEMAN in its relationship to the MAP.  Yet the AOPA note clearly shows that you can subtract the two DME distances to find the MAP.

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I will say this a third time

 

If you want to locate a NAVAID, like a LOM, you can do that with the GPS.

 

If you're flying a VOR/DME,  ILS/DME, ADF/DME (yes, they exist), or an approach that says "DME required", and you are using the terrestrial NAVAID as your primary means of navigation, you must load the overlay procedure into the GPS unit, and use the co-located DME fixes. You CANNOT use "Direct To:  DME + distance to identify the DME fixes.

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I will say this a third time

 

If you want to locate a NAVAID, like a LOM, you can do that with the GPS.

 

If you're flying a VOR/DME,  ILS/DME, ADF/DME (yes, they exist), or an approach that says "DME required", and you are using the terrestrial NAVAID as your primary means of navigation, you must load the overlay procedure into the GPS unit, and use the co-located DME fixes. You CANNOT use "Direct To:  DME + distance to identify the DME fixes.

 

...and I hate to ask this question, but could you further clarify?

 

Are you saying that if you have a GPS, then:

 

1) you can't use the GPS as a DME for "DME Required" by using it to tell you distances to DME fixes.

 

2) You can use the GPS to fly a "DME Required" approach by loading the DME Required approach into it.

 

Does this need to be a WAAS GPS, or is that decision based on whether or not it is a precision approach?

Edited by HRM
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...and I hate to ask this question, but could you further clarify?

Are you saying that if you have a GPS, then:

1) you can't use the GPS as a DME for "DME Required" by using it to tell you distances to DME fixes.

2) You can use the GPS to fly a "DME Required" approach by loading the DME Required approach into it.

Does this need to be a WAAS GPS, or is that decision based on whether or not it is a precision approach?

It depends on the approach. If the approach has "GPS" in the name or lists GPS specifically (e.g. DME or GPS required) then you need to load it.

If the approach is something like a VOR/DME with no mention of GPS anywhere on the approach plate then you may use GPS "in lieu of" the DME. In that case you only need to load the DME fix.

If you have a Garmin 430 you should be able to tell the difference when you attempt to load the approach.

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I will say this a third time

If you want to locate a NAVAID, like a LOM, you can do that with the GPS.

If you're flying a VOR/DME, ILS/DME, ADF/DME (yes, they exist), or an approach that says "DME required", and you are using the terrestrial NAVAID as your primary means of navigation, you must load the overlay procedure into the GPS unit, and use the co-located DME fixes. You CANNOT use "Direct To: DME + distance to identify the DME fixes.

I think we are talking about different things. When the FAA says "in lieu of" they typically mean a case where GPS isn't specifically listed. In that case the GPS overlay is not official and is for advisory purposes only. In that case you are not required to load it. This is what is outlined in that AOPA link.

In the cases where GPS is listed on the plate there should be an official overlay that needs to be loaded. These should be distinguished in the list of approaches for an airport on your GPS unit. I believe this is what you were referring to when you pointed to that approach at SFO.

In the posts that preceded our discussion The term "in lieu of" was mentioned without specifically mentioning GPS so I was focused on the first case.

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>If the approach is something like a VOR/DME with no mention of GPS anywhere on the approach plate then you may use GPS "in lieu of" the DME. In that case you only need to load the DME fix. 

this is false.

 

first of all, there are no approaches like "VOR/DME with no mention of GPS anywhere on the approach plate": all terrestrial navaid approaches that require DME have intersections co-located with the DME fixes. For example, this TCY VOR/DME 26 approach shows:
 

I5Ps9t5.png

 

(source: http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1503/05815VD26.PDF)

and if you are using GPS-in-lieu-of-DME, you must, as per AC 90-108, use RW26, ZADBA, SIGBY, and WIBAG to identify the stepdowns and MDA. you cannot use MOD + DME distance
 

 

AC 90-108

 

 

9. OPERATING REQUIREMENTS AND CONSIDERATIONS. 

c. Operating Requirements. 

(1) For the purposes described in this AC, pilots may not manually enter published procedure or route waypoints via latitude/longitude, place/bearing, or place/bearing/distance into the aircraft system.

 

 

 

you cannot identify DME waypoints required for an approach procedure by using the DME fix + distances. you have to use the DME waypoints loaded into the GPS.

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AC 90-108

 

9. OPERATING REQUIREMENTS AND CONSIDERATIONS.

c. Operating Requirements.

(1) For the purposes described in this AC, pilots may not manually enter published procedure or route waypoints via latitude/longitude, place/bearing, or place/bearing/distance into the aircraft system.

 

 

 

you cannot identify DME waypoints required for an approach procedure by using the DME fix + distances. you have to use the DME waypoints loaded into the GPS.

 

I think you are misreading that.  It only says you can't create your own waypoint based upon place/bearing/distance.  It has absolutely nothing to do with navigation.  You are absolutely allowed to navigate based upon reference to any waypoint in your database.

 

There is a good discussion of this in the FAA Instrument Flying Handbook.  Starting on page 9-27 there is a section on GPS substitution that includes the following:

 

To Determine Aircraft Position Over a DME Fix:

1. Verify aircraft GPS system integrity monitoring is

functioning properly and indicates satisfactory integrity.

2. If the fix is identified by a five-letter name that is

contained in the GPS airborne database, select either

the named fix as the active GPS WP or the facility

establishing the DME fix as the active GPS WP. When

using a facility as the active WP, the only acceptable

facility is the DME facility that is charted as the one

used to establish the DME fix. If this facility is not in

the airborne database, it is not authorized for use.

3. If the fix is identified by a five-letter name that is not

contained in the GPS airborne database, or if the fix

is not named, select the facility establishing the DME

fix or another named DME fix as the active GPS WP.

4. When selecting the named fix as the active GPS WP,

a pilot is over the fix when the GPS system indicates

the active WP.

5. If selecting the DME providing facility as the active

GPS WP, a pilot is over the fix when the GPS distance

from the active WP equals the charted DME value, and

the aircraft is established on the appropriate bearing

or course.

 

 

It clearly says you can select either the named fix or the facility as a waypoint.

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