IFR question

[HRM]

They don't know what your conditions are, sometimes they ask...

 

Thanks, this clears up another point. So, to the controller, you are either IFR or VFR and depending on which one, you (and they) follow a set of rules. This has nothing to do with the actual conditions you, the pilot, may be in. In other words, you could be on an IFR flight plan from airport A to airport B under completely CAVU conditions and yet still have to follow the IFR rules whereas another pilot going from A to B could be under VFR. The only thing separating you would be the directional flight levels and the VFR pilot seeing you and staying clear--barring, of course, you looking out the window or the controller giving you a heads up (literally).

 

At any point you could "cancel IFR" and magically switch rules. No?

[carusoam]

Yes on both accounts.

To cancel you need to be in VMC...

There are so many technical and social details to get familiar with.

Technical- Rules to follow...

Social- Best way to follow the rules with your equipment in your area....

The FAA rules are painful and are the minimum knowledge...

The Collins book is the practical knowledge...

A good school or CFII can help sew things together with you.

I used the American Flyers program. They also have a weekend practical test class that I took...

Americanflyers.com

They have a few locations around the country...

Best regards,

-a-

[Marauder]

Thanks, this clears up another point. So, to the controller, you are either IFR or VFR and depending on which one, you (and they) follow a set of rules. This has nothing to do with the actual conditions you, the pilot, may be in. In other words, you could be on an IFR flight plan from airport A to airport B under completely CAVU conditions and yet still have to follow the IFR rules whereas another pilot going from A to B could be under VFR. The only thing separating you would be the directional flight levels and the VFR pilot seeing you and staying clear--barring, of course, you looking out the window or the controller giving you a heads up (literally).

At any point you could "cancel IFR" and magically switch rules. No?

The big differences is that if you are getting flight following while VFR, the controller can drop you if the workload gets too much. They can't do that when you are on an IFR flight plan.

I've made many IFR flights in clear skies. You just need to be a bit more precise on following your clearance and maintaining your assigned altitude. You also need to follow any changes they may issue.

[Marauder]

My experience has been that most IFR flying is NOT in "the soup". Typically you might take off and climb through the clouds up to the clear air and be VMC for most of the flight before descending back through the clouds and shooting the approach to landing. Most of us non-comercial IFR pilots have to do regular hood time each year because we can't seem to find enough time in the soup to stay current.

So true. And when you get conditions here in the Northeast conducive to be in the clouds for a while, you have to contend with stuff like icing.

I found it easier to just schedule an IPC every six months. It also helps break bad habits I may have picked up.

[Danb]

hrm..that's there primary mission or one of them is to provide separation of traffic, when advised of traffic you merely

[Hank]

Regardless of IFR / VFR, if you can see other traffic, it's your responsibility to avoid it. If you're IFR, you'll get a traffic call; with FF, you'll USUALLY get a traffic call. Then it's see and avoid. If you can't see, tell them so and they may vector you away, climb, descend, something. The controller's chair is comfortable, on the ground and never in danger; you still have to do the PIC stuff. But when IFR, you get more help.

[HRM]

The big differences is that if you are getting flight following while VFR, the controller can drop you if the workload gets too much. They can't do that when you are on an IFR flight plan.

 

Them's the rules...I've been dropped around the Austin-San Antonio Charlie-plex due to workload. In fact, I keep wondering when the FAA is going to make that mess a Bravo.

 

I now see that I have been fortunate in that 90% of my flying has been in, around, over or through the Houston Bravo. I have my Mooney annual'd at a small airport that lives under one of it's tiers. The Houston controllers are great guys and there is a lot of complexity to the space, with the advantage that it is all flat except for some wickedly high towers here and there. I think you will all agree that once a VFR flight is cleared into the Bravo that it is essentially an IFR flight. I know this sounds specious, but I was doing all this flying under these conditions thinking that the IFR guys were off on a different frequency and operating under significantly different rules. This is not the case since under VMC FF the process is pretty much the same. I've had some excellent practice and the controllers have been great teachers even though they didn't realize it and neither did I until recently.

 

From the comments here I've been able to fill in a lot of the gaps. There is a mental shift between VFR and IFR, but if we did a Venn diagram they would overlap and I was failing to grasp the details of this overlap.

[carusoam]

Overcoming cognitive overload challenges of IFR flight is fun...

GPS, GPSS, altitude hold and reminders, minimize the cog errors that are 'normal' challenges for most people.

A single VOR in the panel is enough equipment for an IFR flight. But, trying to maintain a flight path and altitude while looking for an intersection is a bit too old school...

Go get your CFII onboard and go get challenged!

Keep in mind I am only a PP, not a CFII...

Best regards,

-a-

[Bob - S50]

I have been doing a lot of IFR studying on my own and have a question that I hope someone can answer.

 

When you TO into an IFR flight plan, are you in contact with ATC and do they have you on radar via your transponder?

 

In other words, is it just like flight following but under IMC?

 

If you miss a fix or are unable to figure out where you are via VOR, do they just tell you? Do they vector you back where you need to be if you get lost?

 

As others have said in different words:

 

1.  If you are at a tower controlled airport you will call clearance delivery if there is one, or ground if there isn't, and get your 'clearance'.  This will include the route of flight, initial altitude to climb to, when to expect your filed altitude, your transponder code and departure frequency.  The route may be 'as filed' or it may be changed so be ready to write it down.  It may include headings, altitudes or a standard instrument departure (SID).

 

2.  At an uncontrolled field you have a couple choices.  As others  have said you can contact ATC on the ground to get your clearance.  At S50 we call Seattle Approach.  I can do that from the south end of the field but not the north end.  Or you can call Flight Service on your phone to get your clearance.  There is a separate number just for doing that.  Either way, you'll be given a void time, usually less than 5 minutes to be airborne.  Or if the weather is VMC you can take off and remain VFR, then call ATC to pick up your IFR clearance.  You must remain and fly VFR until you get your clearance and you may be required to remain VMC until some specified altitude when they can start providing terrain separation.  It may be a bit of a challenge to fly and write down your clearance at the same time so don't call them unless the airplane is stable and trimmed.

 

3.  IFR is sort of like flight following.  They may or may not call out traffic.  They are required to keep you clear of all KNOWN traffic with vectors or altitude changes if needed.

 

4.  You don't want to 'mess up' and miss a fix or stray off course without permission.  If you do, you may be 'violated' and subject to FAA enforcement action.  Unless it will compromise safety, you are required to comply with all ATC instructions.  You will be expected to track courses, fly assigned headings, maintain assigned altitudes, and comply with all portions of approaches.  With that said, if ATC gives you an instruction that you cannot comply with, just say unable.  For example, in the DC9, when they cleared me direct to some fix, I would say unable because we did not have RNAV capabilities.  If they tell you to cross some waypoint at or at/above or at/below some specific altitude, and you aren't positive you can do that, just say unable, but you'll do your best.

 

When you are IFR, even when VMC, you may not deviate from your clearance without permission.   So if you are flying by Crater Lake and want to take a closer look, unlike VFR, you cannot just fly over and take a look.  However, you can ask ATC to deviate to the right (or left) for sight seeing.  They may ask how far or for how long, but if they approve it, then you are cleared to do that.

 

Being IFR qualified opens up a few more options.  It will let you go from point A to B when clouds or visibility prevent doing it VFR.  However, be sure to establish your own personal minimums.  You'll learn what the 'minimums' rules are, but I'd recommend setting yours higher.  Personally, here are a couple of mine:

 

* If I was there right now, is the weather above minimums?  If not, I'm not taking off.

* I want the weather at my destination to be at least 200' and 1 mile better than minimums or I'm not going.  And then I want a reasonable alternate with weather well above minimums.

* When looking at the forecast, I consider whether the current weather is better or worse than forecast.  If worse, I up my personal minimums.

* I consider whether the weather is improving or getting worse.  If going down, I up my personal minimums.

 

When flying IFR remember, the only time you have too much gas is when you are on fire!

 

Have fun and good luck,

 

Bob

[yvesg]

My personal minimums are decided with the following in mind: If during my climb in clouds I get an engine failure, how much height (or overcast height above ground) do I think I need to safely make it back to the airport or find an acceptable emergency landing area?

This is rarely less than 1000 feet for me.

Yves

[Mooneymite]

When you depart IFR you will always have a clearance.

Just to muddy the water....

You may operate IMC without a clearance in uncontrolled airspace according to the regs if the pilot has an IR and the aircraft is appropriately equipped. Also, military pilots may be familiar with MARSA procedures which is a different animal, but permits IMC operations without an ATC clearance..

Two issues:

Uncontrolled airspace is getting tough to find.

Who in the civilized world wants to fly IMC without a clearance?

91.173

No person may operate an aircraft in controlled airspace under IFR unless that person has --

(a) Filed an IFR flight plan; and

( Received an appropriate ATC clearance.

[HRM]

Two issues:

Uncontrolled airspace is getting tough to find.

Who in the civilized world wants to fly IMC without a clearance?

 

 

I copy that!!!

[Marauder]

To add to the minimums comments, I follow a 3 C rule;

1) Am I current? Sounds simple, but being legally current means more than just whether or not I have met the 6 month requirement to function as PIC for an IFR flight. It also means; are my databases current or do I have the information required to make them current? Have I done my required VOR check in the past 30 days? Is my plane under a current IFR certification?

2) Am I competent? Just because everything is legally current, it doesn't mean I have flown enough or recently in the conditions I want to launch under. I also put my physical and mental status in this category. Simply I want to follow the acronym IM SAFE.

3) Am I confident? This involves my confidence that the weather will remain acceptable. Do I have confidence that my overflight areas will allow me a chance to set down in enough VFR conditions to give me a chance?

When you have 1 bad experience in your flying career, you learn. When it happens more than once, you need to evaluate your decision making and adjust.

[rbp]

You asked a very broad question, which garnered right answers, some misleading answers, some incomplete answers, and some wrong answers

 

please do yourself a favor and use an authoritative source, such as the Instrument Flying Handbook, which has an entire chapter (#10 IFR Flight) devoted to your answer.

 

http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/media/FAA-H-8083-15B.pdf

 

or the AIM's chapter 5:

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/ATpubs/AIM/TOC.html#Chapter5. Air Traffic Procedures

[HRM]

You asked a very broad question, which garnered right answers, some misleading answers, some incomplete answers, and some wrong answers

 

Do me a favor and identify the wrong answers. Also, thanks for the links.

[Bob - S50]

As others have said in different words:

 

1.  If you are at a tower controlled airport you will call clearance delivery if there is one, or ground if there isn't, and get your 'clearance'.  This will include the route of flight, initial altitude to climb to, when to expect your filed altitude, your transponder code and departure frequency.  The route may be 'as filed' or it may be changed so be ready to write it down.  It may include headings, altitudes or a standard instrument departure (SID).

 

2.  At an uncontrolled field you have a couple choices.  As others  have said you can contact ATC on the ground to get your clearance.  At S50 we call Seattle Approach.  I can do that from the south end of the field but not the north end.  Or you can call Flight Service on your phone to get your clearance.  There is a separate number just for doing that.  Either way, you'll be given a void time, usually less than 5 minutes to be airborne.  Or if the weather is VMC you can take off and remain VFR, then call ATC to pick up your IFR clearance.  You must remain and fly VFR until you get your clearance and you may be required to remain VMC until some specified altitude when they can start providing terrain separation.  It may be a bit of a challenge to fly and write down your clearance at the same time so don't call them unless the airplane is stable and trimmed.

 

3.  IFR is sort of like flight following.  They may or may not call out traffic.  They are required to keep you clear of all KNOWN traffic with vectors or altitude changes if needed.

 

4.  You don't want to 'mess up' and miss a fix or stray off course without permission.  If you do, you may be 'violated' and subject to FAA enforcement action.  Unless it will compromise safety, you are required to comply with all ATC instructions.  You will be expected to track courses, fly assigned headings, maintain assigned altitudes, and comply with all portions of approaches.  With that said, if ATC gives you an instruction that you cannot comply with, just say unable.  For example, in the DC9, when they cleared me direct to some fix, I would say unable because we did not have RNAV capabilities.  If they tell you to cross some waypoint at or at/above or at/below some specific altitude, and you aren't positive you can do that, just say unable, but you'll do your best.

 

When you are IFR, even when VMC, you may not deviate from your clearance without permission.   So if you are flying by Crater Lake and want to take a closer look, unlike VFR, you cannot just fly over and take a look.  However, you can ask ATC to deviate to the right (or left) for sight seeing.  They may ask how far or for how long, but if they approve it, then you are cleared to do that.

 

Being IFR qualified opens up a few more options.  It will let you go from point A to B when clouds or visibility prevent doing it VFR.  However, be sure to establish your own personal minimums.  You'll learn what the 'minimums' rules are, but I'd recommend setting yours higher.  Personally, here are a couple of mine:

 

* If I was there right now, is the weather above minimums?  If not, I'm not taking off.

* I want the weather at my destination to be at least 200' and 1 mile better than minimums or I'm not going.  And then I want a reasonable alternate with weather well above minimums.

* When looking at the forecast, I consider whether the current weather is better or worse than forecast.  If worse, I up my personal minimums.

* I consider whether the weather is improving or getting worse.  If going down, I up my personal minimums.

 

When flying IFR remember, the only time you have too much gas is when you are on fire!

 

Have fun and good luck,

 

Bob

 

I have a new one to add to a possible 'gottcha'.  Yesterday I filed IFR from S50 to KCLM.  I filed S501 SEA V4 JAWBN KCLM.  When I called approach for my clearance, I was cleared "as filed" but hold for release.  Before I took off, they asked me about the S501 in the route of flight and if that was a typo.  I said no, that's the Auburn 1 departure.  They said ahhhhh.  I ended up flying runway heading and getting vectors.

 

Bob

[Marauder]

I have a new one to add to a possible 'gottcha'. Yesterday I filed IFR from S50 to KCLM. I filed S501 SEA V4 JAWBN KCLM. When I called approach for my clearance, I was cleared "as filed" but hold for release. Before I took off, they asked me about the S501 in the route of flight and if that was a typo. I said no, that's the Auburn 1 departure. They said ahhhhh. I ended up flying runway heading and getting vectors.

Bob

We have some TEK routes around this part of the country that are starting to get some popularity. Not surprisingly, you get a "you want to fly what?,".

Another thing to keep an eye on is the agreements that approach controlling facilities have with each other. Dover and Philly approach have an agreement to keep us flibs at specific altitudes and routing if our destination is in their sectors. File what you, get what they give...

[HRM]

We have some TEK routes around this part of the country that are starting to get some popularity. Not surprisingly, you get a "you want to fly what?,".

Another thing to keep an eye on is the agreements that approach controlling facilities have with each other. Dover and Philly approach have an agreement to keep us flibs at specific altitudes and routing if our destination is in their sectors. File what you, get what they give...

 

One of the gurus on a PilotWorkshops.com audio clip suggested the use of Fltplan.com since it will show you recently issued routes that have a high probability of being accepted as is. I am not a fan of Fltplan.com, but when I experimented with various destinations it did indeed list "The 5 Most Recent Planned ATC Routes between A & B". It's been great for my armchair study and when I start to file I plan (no pun intended) to go there first.

 

I think we can assume that if ATC allows a route it will be one that keeps all of them and theirs happy. No, I won't recite the motto...

[Marauder]

One of the gurus on a PilotWorkshops.com audio clip suggested the use of Fltplan.com since it will show you recently issued routes that have a high probability of being accepted as is. I am not a fan of Fltplan.com, but when I experimented with various destinations it did indeed list "The 5 Most Recent Planned ATC Routes between A & B". It's been great for my armchair study and when I start to file I plan (no pun intended) to go there first.

I think we can assume that if ATC allows a route it will be one that keeps all of them and theirs happy. No, I won't recite the motto...

I have used fltpln go and it is pretty good. Just don't like the interface. On the trip I took this morning, Garmin Pilot did a good job of showing the route histories and will send back an ATC proposed route.

[midlifeflyer]

One of the gurus on a PilotWorkshops.com audio clip suggested the use of Fltplan.com since it will show you recently issued routes that have a high probability of being accepted as is. I am not a fan of Fltplan.com, but when I experimented with various destinations it did indeed list "The 5 Most Recent Planned ATC Routes between A & B". It's been great for my armchair study and when I start to file I plan (no pun intended) to go there first.

 

I think we can assume that if ATC allows a route it will be one that keeps all of them and theirs happy. No, I won't recite the motto...

 

That information is also becoming available from other sources. Flightaware and ForeFlight are among those providing them now. In addition, IFR flight plans filed with FliPlan and ForeFlight (and perhaps others)  as well as those filed with LockMart directly, will generate a notification that gives you advance notification of your expected IFR clearance.

 

Emphasis on "expected" although I've seen them come through that way most of the time in my flights.

[Danb]

For the last yr or so, I have checked flight aware on my iPad just before preflight to see if I'm listed in the sch. Departure section, and it's been there so I'm then confident my flight plan is at least in the system...waiting for Wilmington to get my release from Phl is another matter..

[Marauder]

For the last yr or so, I have checked flight aware on my iPad just before preflight to see if I'm listed in the sch. Departure section, and it's been there so I'm then confident my flight plan is at least in the system...waiting for Wilmington to get my release from Phl is another matter..

I don't missed those days at KILG, especially those early morning flights when I got stacked up behind the corporates.

Do they still launch IFR flights off of 32 in bad weather? I can remember a flew IFR departures in the rain where I felt like Jimmy Stewart when he played Lucky Lindy in the Spirit of St. Louis movie. The scene where he is taking off in the rain and water is spraying up from puddles as he hits them. I hated that runway in bad weather!

[Danb]

Most of the time 32 is the departure runway...the controllers still have not learned to handle more than one plane when it's clear..the other day I waited for a Hawker 10 miles out I was on 9 he's landind 19 then another 5 minutes passed and I asked if they remembered me and I waited for a Lear Don Anthony was flying for another 8-9 minutes.,I was at the runway - a total of 19 minutes before taking off in clear sky's.,gotta love the Kilg jail.

[HRM]

Most of the time 32 is the departure runway...the controllers still have not learned to handle more than one plane when it's clear..the other day I waited for a Hawker 10 miles out I was on 9 he's landind 19 then another 5 minutes passed and I asked if they remembered me and I waited for a Lear Don Anthony was flying for another 8-9 minutes.,I was at the runway - a total of 19 minutes before taking off in clear sky's.,gotta love the Kilg jail.

 

It's rarely the controllers, they have an instinct to move planes, unless their handlers think otherwise for whatever reason. I will bet there is a backstory.

[HRM]

Jeezus Keee-ryest. So, it takes 300 to get a label change. Thanks guys!!!