BoiseMooney Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 At the risk of committing a faux pas by starting another thread on this topic, I’m looking for advice – what would you do – on resolving a pretty bad fuel leak in the M20J I’m buying. PPI is finished and was done by Joey Cole everything is great except for the tank. I was made aware of a weep by the owner, but this is worse than originally anticipated (SURPRISE!). I’ve searched and read a bunch of threads debating the pros/cons of bladders vs strip/reseal, but I’m interested in thoughts from the brain trust on my situation. I’m not looking for advice on how to negotiate the financial aspect with the seller – just the best/most practical solution and we’ll work out the finances. The right tank has been completely filled and is without leaks. The left tank appears to be leaking mostly from the outboard fuel bay, which is out of compliance with SB M20-230 as fuel isn’t properly flowing from that bay into the others. The leak is so bad that fuel is pooling all the way down in the fuselage under the cabin. Option A – Patch – Joey can attempt to patch the leak ‘enough’ to make it airworthy and resolve the flow between the fuel bays, thus resolving the SB and possibly solving the leak problems. This is a short-term fix, and might buy me a couple years – or it might just get me across the country to do a reseal. Option B – Patch + Reseal – I can do Option A and take the plane straight to Advanced Aircraft in Portland where they’ll do a complete strip/reseal for about $4k per tank and have them just do the left tank. They provide a 5 year warranty (same as bladders, though bladders seem to last much longer). Option C – Bladders – I can order the O&N Bladders (I’d want the 64 gallon to retain the same capacity) and have Joey install them, which saves having the patch before flying, probably eliminates any future fuel problems, but costs 40 lbs useful load and about $13,000 ($8k for the bladders and $5k for install). (edited to add) Option D – Single Tank Ferry – Joey has also suggested that I could fly the aircraft back with 10 gallons in the left tank (just enough for emergency) without it leaking and take it directly to be stripped/resealed. Obviously this will require more fuel stops and some awkward imbalanced flying. Originally, when I thought it was a weep, my plan was to have the reseal done on the weeping tank for $4k and I was prepared for that cost as part of the acquisition. Now that it could be $5k + future problems, it is starting to make some sense to consider just having Joey do the bladders and put that planned money towards that project. The last consideration is time. Bladders will be 3 weeks. The strip/reseal will be 3 weeks, or maybe 4 weeks for both wings. If he patches, that’s a week, plus the 3 or 4 weeks after that for the strip/reseal. There’s a certain elegance of having Joey do the bladders and then pick up a near-perfect airplane that doesn’t need any immediate work. OTOH, the delta of $8k is a big downside for me. Sorry for the epic novel. What would you choose? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mooneymite Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 I'd listen to what Joey recommends. He knows Mooneys and has seen plenty of tank leak/seeps/weeps. He has done bladder installs (I don't think he particularly likes to do them.) and knows the pros and cons. You have to make a determination of how long a fix you want. How long will you probably be keeping the plane? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoiseMooney Posted January 27, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 No idea how long I'll keep the plane. It's my first. I might have it for 30 years or I might decide I want six seats in 3 years. I had forgotten Option D, so I edited to add that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 You know you opened the proverbial can of worms, right?! I had bladders installed 23 years ago this month and been extremely pleased with them - and as Forrest Gump once said; "that's all's I got to say about that". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabremech Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 Personally, I'd fix the left tank and fly the airplane for a while. You'll never get the money back out of installing bladders when you sell it and they aren't an absolute fix for fuel leaks. David 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMuncy Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 I would not work on the non-leaking tank. If you can not have one bladder installed, go with a reseal. If you can install one bladder; flip a coin. I don't think I have ever seen anyone who has bladders complain about them, nor have I seen anyone who resealed complain they should have had bladders installed. Both seem to work with well known pros and cons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tmack1 Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 Since one tank is already done I would reseal the other just for financial reasons it is the cheapest if you only need the one just get someone that knows mooney reseal practices Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbridges Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 tough call. Joey did my bladders 3 years ago, and everything works great. Useful load loss was no big deal b/c I consider my C model a 2 seater. All things being equal, I would have gone to Wilmar, but it was winter, and I wasn't instrument rated at the time. Logistics made Joey Cole much easier for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbridges Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 I would not work on the non-leaking tank. If you can not have one bladder installed, go with a reseal. If you can install one bladder; flip a coin. I don't think I have ever seen anyone who has bladders complain about them, nor have I seen anyone who resealed complain they should have had bladders installed. Both seem to work with well known pros and cons. I think bladders are all or nothing. I don't think you can do a single tank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tmack1 Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 Just remember once you make the decision to go bladders there's no going back 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoiseMooney Posted January 27, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 I would not work on the non-leaking tank. If you can not have one bladder installed, go with a reseal. If you can install one bladder; flip a coin. I don't think I have ever seen anyone who has bladders complain about them, nor have I seen anyone who resealed complain they should have had bladders installed. Both seem to work with well known pros and cons. I think bladders are all or nothing. I don't think you can do a single tank. Correct, bladders have to be done on both tanks according to Joey and O&N. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 I reseated my tanks at the same time that Rob did his bladders. We're both happy with our "fixed" C models since then. There's always Option E: go to the MSC (don't recall the name) in Troutdale, OR, for a strip and reseal using the Paul Beck method. Be careful of paint damage where the chemicals drain out the bottom to recirculate back into the top. My tanks were done mostly by hand, with hand applied chemicals where needed, by Wet Wingologists in Fort Lauderdale. Don't know if anyone in the West uses his process or not. I made my choice by looking at total cost. Beck, Maxwell and Wet Wings were all 600-700 nm away; costs were within 10%; but discount airline flew direct from Huntington, WV to Lauderdale. And Edison gave a MAPA membership discount. Finally, he could fit me into his schedule sooner. This is time to pay your money and make your choice. The only unhappy people seem to be those who cheap out and go for a patch job. Effectiveness of patching is directly related to the condition of the sealant in the rest of the tank; some of mine was crumbly like sand. That's all of my advice. Best wishes, good luck, and enjoy your Mooney!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N201MKTurbo Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 I have always been able to fix leaking tanks. It is a PITA, but if the sealant isn't deteoriated everywhere, the tank is repairable as long as you don't try to take short cuts. In most cases there is just one small bad spot that needs to be redone. Honestly, fixing the leak is usually the easy part. Redoing the access panels is the hard part. Have you checked your outboard fuel sensor? They leak often, and are easy to fix. If you are going to repair the tank you have to go all in. Remove all six access panels, it is the only way to be sure you are leak free before you seal it back up. I could tell you how to leak check a tank, but Don Maxwell already did, so read his web page. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lahso Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 Cole put in bladders for me last year. I live 20 mins from Joey (and he does all my other maint), so that was a easy choice. He will do a good job for you. However, I would lean towards someone closer to you in case there's a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laytonl Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 I've flown half way across the county using option D (I.e., minimal fuel in the leaker and full full in the other) for a re-seal. Other than more frequent stops, it's not too bad. Lee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 Original sealant is almost forty years old. Strip and reseal is 4000 over forty years, or 100$ per year. Fairly cheap and you likely won't own it or care in 30 or 40 years. Clarence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmyfm20s Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 I would check the outboard sensor as mentioned above and do option A if there isn't any evidence of multiple patch attempts. If or when it starts leaking after that I would then strip and reseal that tank. My logic is once they are resealed the clock is ticking on the warranty so I would want to push it out. My J was a 82 and had never had the tanks resealed or patched and had no leaks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 40#s of useful load is significant in our planes. A properly done strip and reseal will last a long time. To me it is an easy choice. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mooniac15u Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 In the bladder/reseal discussions I hear a lot about useful load. In the C/E vs F/J discussions I hear that everyone flies around by themselves or with one passenger 90% of the time. If a few pounds of useful load is that critical I have an idea where most pilots could get 10-20 lbs back... My observation is that the people on MS who will recommend against bladders have never had them. My previous Mooney had bladders and my current one does not. I was very happy with the bladders. I am also happy, so far, with the recent reseal by Wet-Wingologists. The only real difference is that with bladders I never had to wonder if/when the leaks might start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mooniac15u Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 Just remember once you make the decision to go bladders there's no going back Anyone here with bladders that wishes they could go back? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob_Belville Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 Anyone here with bladders that wishes they could go back? Not me. Mine date to '97. Never had the slightest issue. My first M20E had wet wings which we patched a time or two even though that plane was only 11 years old when I bought it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N601RX Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 I started a separate thread about "Weight Loss". Even with bladders you can still have a plane with more useful load than it came with from the factory. http://mooneyspace.com/topic/14346-weight-loss/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_elliott Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 The only unhappy people seem to be those who cheap out and go for a patch job. Effectiveness of patching is directly related to the condition of the sealant in the rest of the tank; some of mine was crumbly like sand. That's all of my advice. Best wishes, good luck, and enjoy your Mooney!! Good point Hank. A well done strip and seal is good for another 30 years or so. It should last longer than the original factory sealant did. Those that point to "and it still leaks" after a tank patch job took the cheap way. I know, I did this also back in 2002. I decided not to throw good money after bad and had it done right at Paul Becks in 2003. Patching only fixes the current leak when the medium is known to be failing. Other areas of the tank will fail soon. An honest guy like Paul can tell you if it is worth patching or a strip and seal is in order. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 Anyone here with bladders that wishes they could go back? Not me. Very pleased with the bladders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 I started a separate thread about "Weight Loss". Even with bladders you can still have a plane with more useful load than it came with from the factory. http://mooneyspace.com/topic/14346-weight-loss/ I'm going to look in my logs, I have the original weight and balance from the factory. There was a lot of weight eaten by the older avionics. The blind encoder I recently had removed was over a pound. Just upgrading to a digital transponder saved me 2 pounds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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