Transponder Down entering Class B

[Hedge]

I was flying to Charlotte last month after picking up my plane from annual after having a lot of work done on the plane.  I test flew it and everything flew great.  The problem came when I asked for flight following coming from Sumter.  I had flight following from Shaw and they did ask me to ident a couple of times, but they gave me following and also advised me of a plane close.  

 

Shaw terminated the following, and I asked for the Charlotte frequency.  I immediately call Charlotte.  She was having a hard time finding me, so I told her that I was cancelling flight following and switched back to 1200.  I was not in Class B airspace.  I was at 4500 when I reported to Charlotte, but I immediately descended to 3500.  As I got a little closer to Rock Hill (which was my destination) I continued to drop elevation to get to pattern altitude of 1600.  So at all times I was below the class B airspace.

 

I had a routine landing, and as I taxied, I got a call on the radio from Rock Hill Unicom that I needed to call Charlotte for a possible violation.

 

They said they didn't get anything from my transponder and I was in the airspace at 4500 ft.  They said they got the elevation from a plane who spotted me.

 

Now I have a report to fill out.  They asked if i knew my transponder didn't work, and I reported that I thought it did as Shaw gave me flight following and didn't tell me any problems with my transponder.

 

I never entered class B, and thought I had a working transponder at the time (it was checked out that day it did not work). What should I have done, and has anyone else had any problem like this in the past?

 

Mark 

[Andy95W]

First, you should fill out a NASA form:

http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/

Since the entire episode was unintentional, that will provide you with some protection from any certificate action. Even if you were not in Class B airspace, you still broke the Mode C veil without an operating Mode C transponder.

Contact the AOPA legal department if you have their legal insurance.

After that, I have always had good luck with just speaking openly and honestly with whoever they want to have talk to you. There may have been a loss of seperation (or a perceived loss) and now they have to investigate- either you or one of their controllers- in order to close and resolve the issue.

Being helpful, while reiterating that you could not have foreseen the malfunction, usually doesn't hurt. Being confrontational often does.

[1964-M20E]

IMHO not a legal one.  Fill out the paper work but do not admit to anything other than what you know as fact during the time of your flight i.e. your flight path, altitude, speed per your instrumentation.  Answer the questions honestly and succinctly do not elaborate any more than absolutely necessary to answer the question.  They are basing a supposed violation on the report from another airplane.  I don’t know about you but I have a hard time identifying exactly how high someone else is from a couple of miles away especially if I’m above or below them.

 

I have had occasional glitches with XPNDR but usually recycling it fixed the issue.

[N201MKTurbo]

Wow, My transponder completely quit Sunday when I was returning from KSGU. I called PHX approach over DRK (they cover half the state now) They said that they couldn't see my transponder, and sure enough it wasn't blinking. It worked fine on the way up on Saturday.

 

They asked me what my intentions were? I said that I would really like to get back to KCHD, which is in the 30 mile mode C ring. The controller said "Stand By". A few minuets later he came back and asked me for a 30 deg left turn for radar id. They handled me with primary only through the center of the class B, right over KPHX. I went back to giving altitude reports like back in the early eighties.

 

I think they enjoyed the challenge. It was very busy too. They forgot to tell the third controller that I was no transponder, he was a little confused.

 

I have always said that PHX approach was the worst in the country, but on Sunday they were the best! THANKS PHX!

[TWinter]

This is why new pilots are apprehensive when flying in controlled airspace and tower communications. You did what you thought was right..It appears nobody was in danger or hurt. Now all of a sudden it's time to get FAA legal advice, fill out and complete investigative reports etc. I realize it was class B (Busiest Airspace), but seems to me if everything is as you report, somebody was wanting to feel real important and pursue this beyond reasonable and prudent. Good luck, sounds like just good old fashion ball-busting. Just my .02.

[Marauder]

I was flying to Charlotte last month after picking up my plane from annual after having a lot of work done on the plane. I test flew it and everything flew great. The problem came when I asked for flight following coming from Sumter. I had flight following from Shaw and they did ask me to ident a couple of times, but they gave me following and also advised me of a plane close.

Shaw terminated the following, and I asked for the Charlotte frequency. I immediately call Charlotte. She was having a hard time finding me, so I told her that I was cancelling flight following and switched back to 1200. I was not in Class B airspace. I was at 4500 when I reported to Charlotte, but I immediately descended to 3500. As I got a little closer to Rock Hill (which was my destination) I continued to drop elevation to get to pattern altitude of 1600. So at all times I was below the class B airspace.

I had a routine landing, and as I taxied, I got a call on the radio from Rock Hill Unicom that I needed to call Charlotte for a possible violation.

They said they didn't get anything from my transponder and I was in the airspace at 4500 ft. They said they got the elevation from a plane who spotted me.

Now I have a report to fill out. They asked if i knew my transponder didn't work, and I reported that I thought it did as Shaw gave me flight following and didn't tell me any problems with my transponder.

I never entered class B, and thought I had a working transponder at the time (it was checked out that day it did not work). What should I have done, and has anyone else had any problem like this in the past?

Mark

Boy does this sound familiar. I fly just outside of the Philadelphia Class B airspace and routinely will fly under the shelves.

Back in the mid summer months I was on an IFR flight plan and being worked by Philly approach. The controller warned me I was constantly showing 200' high and occasionally 300' high. I was able to convince them that I was at the assigned altitude and they left it at that.

On my next flight I was flying VFR and being worked by Potomac. The same thing happened and I took it as a real problem if I didn't correct it. The biggest issue was despite having 3 altimeters on board that agreed, I couldn't tell what ATC was seeing being transmitted by my blind encoder.

I opted to have a Garmin 327 installed so at least I could see what I was transmitting. In the old days (back in the 1990s) I know that I received a letter from the FAA that told me I had a transponder issue and I needed to send documentation that it was checked out or repaired. Anyone else have this happen to them?

[Hedge]

But I didn't even know my transponder wasn't working, so I didn't even konw that I was proceeding into a Mode C area without a working transponder.  I had to fly back to close CVG, but I knew my transponder wasn't working and I got permission to enter without it.  I sent my transponder out to be fixed.  I don't like calls like these.  

 

I am totally working with the FAA to make sure this get resolved, but I didn't even know about that NASA form until a couple days ago, so it is too late I think.

[Hedge]

Boy does this sound familiar. I fly just outside of the Philadelphia Class B airspace and routinely will fly under the shelves.

Back in the mid summer months I was on an IFR flight plan and being worked by Philly approach. The controller warned me I was constantly showing 200' high and occasionally 300' high. I was able to convince them that I was at the assigned altitude and they left it at that.

On my next flight I was flying VFR and being worked by Potomac. The same thing happened and I took it as a real problem if I didn't correct it. The biggest issue was despite having 3 altimeters on board that agreed, I couldn't tell what ATC was seeing being transmitted by my blind encoder.

I opted to have a Garmin 327 installed so at least I could see what I was transmitting. In the old days (back in the 1990s) I know that I received a letter from the FAA that told me I had a transponder issue and I needed to send documentation that it was checked out or repaired. Anyone else have this happen to them?

I am going to upgrade my transponder, but I am going to do it once the ADS - B out is put in my airplane.  My avionics guy advised me to wait as there are two or three good options just waiting for FAA approval to be installed that are much more cost effective.  So I am waiting.  The KT-74 looks nice.

[Marauder]

Let us know how it works out. I don't like these things either. BTW, you have 10 days to file the NASA report.

[mooniac15u]

It might be worth listening to the audio archives for KCLT on http://liveatc.net to see if you can find out what exactly the other pilot told them about your altitude.

[RocketAviator]

But I didn't even know my transponder wasn't working, so I didn't even konw that I was proceeding into a Mode C area without a working transponder.  I had to fly back to close CVG, but I knew my transponder wasn't working and I got permission to enter without it.  I sent my transponder out to be fixed.  I don't like calls like these.  

 

I am totally working with the FAA to make sure this get resolved, but I didn't even know about that NASA form until a couple days ago, so it is too late I think.

Can it hurt to file the NASA now even if it is late? Just curious.

[DonMuncy]

It won't hurt anything, and may actually help "them" keep up with aviation hazards. But it will not help you at all.

[PTK]

Mark, the requirement to file NASA report is within 10 days after the violation, or date when the person became aware or should have been aware of the violation.

You took action to stay out of the Bravo and there's no criminal offense or accident. Assuming no prior violation or FAA enforcement action within the last 5 years, you should be ok.

Definitely file a report. It shows cooperation and a constructive attitude.

[N201MKTurbo]

I have talked to the FAA twice on the phone because of different incidences. Nothing ever became of either one, but both times I told them that I had filed NASA reports and they indicated that it was a good thing. Aside from providing immunity from certificate action it seems to change their attitude toward you especially if you say that an unsafe situation happened and someone should know about it so it might be prevented in the future.

[Piloto]

Check on Flightaware.com your flight path. It puzzle me that ATC relied on another plane to asses your altitude. Was the other plane  that close  to read the N number and asses your elevation on the horizon? Did you hear ATC asking the witness plane about yours. There could have been another plane involved with no working transponder. Get the witness plane N number from ATC and time of contact and check it path on Fligthaware.com to see if it was really close to you. If they are reluctant to provide the information advise them you are going to check with the NTSB on this matter. Since you were in radio contact with ATC all the time they failed to advice you in a timely manner of airspace penetration and the witness plane in the vicinity, it is their responsibility. Sometimes they overlook or make mistakes

 

Check this:

 

José  

[RobertGary1]

you are aware of the mode C veil that surrounds the class B?

[RobertGary1]

My mode C started giving very wrong altitudes overflying lax a few years back. Atc asked me to stop squawking altitude but otherwise my Ifr service was unaffected. I walked asked to report any altitude change at each checkin (roughly every 30 seconds around lax:)). A week later I got a friendly letter just an fyi that my transponder had a problem. No follow up necessary. The issue was my tray. The connectors had corroded. Replace with gold tip and everything was fine.

So sometimes atc is nice about it.

[thinwing]

been there as others have stated FILE NASA asap.Also do not talk to anyone else about this nor talk to anyone from the FAA other than initial call on the ground.Any more "coperation "you provide to faa will be used to strengthen their case against you.If they decide to violate you,you will get the letter and than you unfortunately will need some legal advice.My aviation atty buddys tell me if there was a seperation incident between you and the other "reporting" aircraft ,you are looking at a 90 day suspension and maybe a 409 checkride.The nasa report will prevent the imposition of the sanction (suspension )but the violation still goes on your record come insurance time.Hate to be the bearer of bad news but if there have been more than one discussion with atc/ faa ,I think you need an aviation atty now!Also anything you have stated in this forum is also admissable...use your edit function to cover your back trail...sorry for your trouble...pm me for my issue with atc..goodluck kpc

[robert7467]

Why did you have to post that video? Nightmares will now proceed. Actually these videos along with NTSB reports are a good thing to remind us to be safe. Yes, it can happen to me!

[N201MKTurbo]

If you were not in contact with ATC, you won't be on flight aware. It is very possible that they didn't know who you were until you called in. They probably followed you on radar and asked the airport to have the plane that just landed call them.

If you wouldn't have called, and the people at the airport have your back, you most likely wouldn't have herd any more about it.

[ryoder]

My mode C started giving very wrong altitudes overflying lax a few years back. Atc asked me to stop squawking altitude but otherwise my Ifr service was unaffected. I walked asked to report any altitude change at each checkin (roughly every 30 seconds around lax:)). A week later I got a friendly letter just an fyi that my transponder had a problem. No follow up necessary. The issue was my tray. The connectors had corroded. Replace with gold tip and everything was fine.

So sometimes atc is nice about it.

Hmm recently I asked for flight following while outside the veil amd was told my mode C wasn't working. I told him I could ident and he said to recycle. So I did and then he said I was radar contact. Then while flying along the coast and prior to entering class bravo approach said to notify them of any altitude changes. I acknowledged. I wonder if they penciled me in as level at 6500 but didn't actually have my mode c? I recently got my ifr cert but this transponder needs to be pushed in tight from time to time.

[Piloto]

I have the Monroy ATD-300+ that besides showing traffic it shows the actual altitude the transponder is transmitting out of the antenna. A transponder could be showing the pressure altitude on its display but not transmitting it or transmitting the wrong altitude. Sometimes the transponder problem is intermittent and would not show on a ground test.

 

For more info:

http://www.monroyaero.com/ATD300V10.pdf

 

José

[Marauder]

Hmm recently I asked for flight following while outside the veil amd was told my mode C wasn't working. I told him I could ident and he said to recycle. So I did and then he said I was radar contact. Then while flying along the coast and prior to entering class bravo approach said to notify them of any altitude changes. I acknowledged. I wonder if they penciled me in as level at 6500 but didn't actually have my mode c? I recently got my ifr cert but this transponder needs to be pushed in tight from time to time.

Pretty likely they had your Mode C if you were planning on entering the Bravo. The altitude change request is usually to alert them of a VFR descent that you did not need to notify them of otherwise.

[Bob - S50]

I am going to upgrade my transponder, but I am going to do it once the ADS - B out is put in my airplane.  My avionics guy advised me to wait as there are two or three good options just waiting for FAA approval to be installed that are much more cost effective.  So I am waiting.  The KT-74 looks nice.

Don't forget to look at the Trig TT-31 and TT-22.

 

Trig makes the KT-74 for King.

 

Bob

[cujet]

You asked for flight following, correct? If so, shortly after the request, you should have had conformation of "radar contact" and at some point you probably said your altitude. If you had "radar contact" conformation, there is a record of that, and you probably experienced an in flight failure.